Need Help. Please. I own a Reverse Osmosis Machine from 1989

[Rookie68]

I have this machine at one of my washes and it has a seperate electric motor that turns a pump.
I have learned a fair amount after replacing the Motor and Pump. Today I finally got it running. But Damn, the little electric motor was running for at least 2 hours if not 3 and water was just coming out at a trickle. The brand new electric motor was so hot I was afriad I was going to burn her up. I asked a fellow self wash owner and they suggested I order a new membrane. Its on its way.... I tried getting in the membrane tube today from the bottom and failed. Was fearful I would break the damn thing if I hit it any harder with the hammer and screwdriver I was using. My membrane holder appears to be fiberglass. Any reason why I wouldnt want to replace this with a new stainless one ?

1. What type of flow should I expect from the tube that fills the storage tank ?
2. Is it possible the pump itself is bout do die and that is what is slowing me down ?
3. is the membrane being old and clogged more likley to be causing my super slow flow into tank ?
4. The last motor almost started on fire, but the bearings on the pump were shot as in rusted out. I found another pump in a bucket that looked healthier and slapped her in there. I have about 1200 bucks into this repair now including a visit from the local wash repair folks,( who basically just told me it was broken) the motor, the membrane, the pre filter housing (had a crack in the threads for the lid), and a new water softener tank and the filler material as it was leaking as well.


Starting to wonder how much demand there really is for spotless rinse. I have 8 position dials on my timer boxes. One is used for STOP right now. Previous owners had it set up this way. Is this common ? or was this just their cheap way of not putting a product there ? My equipment rooms are both so messy and such a hodgepodge. I really want to revamp both of my sites. My other location has no RO and the previous owner simply replaced it with bug wash. Thoughts ?

My current " To Do List" is below. Always looking for feedback from others who have already gone through this.

1. Security Camera System (In Progress)
2. Debit Card Machines (This Summer)
3. Signage
4. Parking lot repairs (several pot holes)
5. Painting of my metal awnings.
6. Upgrade outdoor vending machines IE... get rid of old school Laurels and upgrade to in the wall electronic vendors.
7. Hot Air Dryers

I am hoping the current setup keeps running for a little while but I really want to replace the mess I have today with all Air Logic equipment for the Low Pressure Stuff. I have replaced a HP pump thus far.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

That is an antique! That is a 2.5" x 40" membrane and it's only going to make about .5 gpm under best case scenario. If you have a 6 bay it's undersized by current standards. You'll eventually want to upgrade to at least a 4"x40" membrane system.....and before you ask, you cannot just hook up one to that system. There is not enough pump/motor to properly feed the membrane.

 

[Greg Pack]

Seems like I get about between 1-1.5 GPM out of a single 4x40 membrane, so yeah, you're gonna get just a relative trickle out of a 2.5. Looking at specs it looks like a dow filmtec has a 1000 Gallons per day capacity which is at most .7 gpm. and that's at the ideal feed temperature which I think is 70 degrees. practically I would expect no more than about .5 gpm production on average But if it keeps up as a 2.5 you can just get another.

As mentioned you could install a stainless 4x40 housing and new membrane but you're probably gonna need a pump capable of about 4-5 GPM at 180-200 psi to get optimum flow.

 

[Rookie68]

Thank you. So it may not be that the membrane is clogged or needs to be replaced. It just seemed like my lil electric motor was working really hard yesterday for very little RO water in the tank. So much so that I unplugged it before I left for fear of a fire.

That is an antique! That is a 2.5" x 40" membrane and it's only going to make about .5 gpm under best case scenario. If you have a 6 bay it's undersized by current standards. You'll eventually want to upgrade to at least a 4"x40" membrane system.....and before you ask, you cannot just hook up one to that system. There is not enough pump/motor to properly feed the membrane.

 

[Rookie68]

Seems like I get about between 1-1.5 GPM out of a single 4x40 membrane, so yeah, you're gonna get just a relative trickle out of a 2.5. Looking at specs it looks like a dow filmtec has a 1000 Gallons per day capacity which is at most .7 gpm. and that's at the ideal feed temperature which I think is 70 degrees. practically I would expect no more than about .5 gpm production on average But if it keeps up as a 2.5 you can just get another.

As mentioned you could install a stainless 4x40 housing and new membrane but you're probably gonna need a pump capable of about 4-5 GPM at 180-200 psi to get optimum flow.

Thank you. I’m so grateful for this forum as well as your response.

 

[mjwalsh]

As mentioned you could install a stainless 4x40 housing and new membrane but you're probably gonna need a pump capable of about 4-5 GPM at 180-200 psi to get optimum flow.

Our stainless steel 4x40 housing RO spot free system is from 1987. I wonder ... at what point did the car wash industry stop using the 2.5" RO setup???

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Our stainless steel 4x40 housing RO spot free system is from 1987. I wonder ... at what point did the car wash industry stop using the 2.5" RO setup???

We didn't. They are fine for smaller applications. A single 2.5 is good for around 600ish gallons a day. I won't recommend on them on anything larger than a 3 bay self serve.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Thats a lot of questions packed in there here's a few more opinions for you

Yes, concensus is that SFR is well worth it. I would definitely fix it, I would not hesitate one minute.
I realize sinking 1200 into repairs already sounds like a lot, but for comparison I just looked at the price tag on a new system from where I bought my turnkey SFR system over 20 years ago. New $7000 to 10,000. That gives you a price benchmark, even if you have to spend a couple more 1000 it is worth it.

Bug-off, depends on location. Does not sell at all here for me, literally almost zero, but in the South during bug season its a big seller.

...So it may not be that the membrane is clogged or needs to be replaced...

Yes the membrane probably needs to be replaced, your instincts were probably correct. Typical symptoms of a bad membrane are lower than rated flow, and/or the motor/pump struggling and getting hot. Or... the system has been sitting un-used, out of service - since SFR makes $, most people keep it running unless it doesnt work.
The pumps do go bad, I've had to replace a couple over the years. I think most guys dont repair them, but I did once. Didnt really save $, but I saw the inside, they really are quite simple.

Keep the "stop" position for now, you might want it when you add credit card acceptance. I personally kept it permanently because I hate to see people drive away with the equipment still running.

Your to-do list looks good but I would
- bump pothole repair to #1 because its cheap, fast, and really annoys customers.
- add another item: upgrade to 12 position rotary switches. I would start that "now", and be ok if it takes a while. But its good filler work; you can run the wires to one bay at a time, hook the wires up one bay at a time, upgrade face plates, etc. Thats how I did it anyway, easy to squeeze in a half hour here & there for a year or so, then all of a sudden it was done.

 

[Rookie68]

Thats a lot of questions packed in there here's a few more opinions for you

Yes, concensus is that SFR is well worth it. I would definitely fix it, I would not hesitate one minute.
I realize sinking 1200 into repairs already sounds like a lot, but for comparison I just looked at the price tag on a new system from where I bought my turnkey SFR system over 20 years ago. New $7000 to 10,000. That gives you a price benchmark, even if you have to spend a couple more 1000 it is worth it.

Bug-off, depends on location. Does not sell at all here for me, literally almost zero, but in the South during bug season its a big seller.


Yes the membrane probably needs to be replaced, your instincts were probably correct. Typical symptoms of a bad membrane are lower than rated flow, and/or the motor/pump struggling and getting hot. Or... the system has been sitting un-used, out of service - since SFR makes $, most people keep it running unless it doesnt work.
The pumps do go bad, I've had to replace a couple over the years. I think most guys dont repair them, but I did once. Didnt really save $, but I saw the inside, they really are quite simple.

Keep the "stop" position for now, you might want it when you add credit card acceptance. I personally kept it permanently because I hate to see people drive away with the equipment still running.

Your to-do list looks good but I would
- bump pothole repair to #1 because its cheap, fast, and really annoys customers.
- add another item: upgrade to 12 position rotary switches. I would start that "now", and be ok if it takes a while. But its good filler work; you can run the wires to one bay at a time, hook the wires up one bay at a time, upgrade face plates, etc. Thats how I did it anyway, easy to squeeze in a half hour here & there for a year or so, then all of a sudden it was done.

Thank you Paul. I appreciate your suggestions and like them. You have a preference for rotary switch vs push button and if so why on way or the other ? My guess is the rotary switch is less likely to fail than push button.

 

[MEP001]

The pushbuttons are pretty durable depending on the type, but the buttons and control board are expensive. The rotary switch is inexpensive and easy to replace, you don't have to send off a control board for repair or keep two or three as backup.

 

[Rookie68]

So my RO tank is over flowing. I gather I have a bad float. Which float performs which action ?

IE I have one at the bottom the tank that I assume tells the system to fill the tank.

I also have one at the top of the tank.

what’s odd is the motor and pump are off but I have a steady flow of water leaking out the hole the previous owners used for the floatselectrical cord.

open to ideas. Losing a fair amount of RO water.
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[Randy]

I'd try replacing the float switch/ball first.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

So my RO tank is over flowing...
the motor and pump are off...

If the regeneration pump is not running, then my first 2 thoughts are
- bad check valve, one or more of your bay's high pressure function is backfeeding into the RO tank. Check the TDS, that is the quickest way to see.
- I havent seen it before, but I suppose its possible that city water pressure is pushing through your new pump & membrane, "generating" RO even though the pump isnt running. Just speculating here but since you're rebuilding a system that hasnt been used in a while, maybe? Also easy enough to test, look to see if water is entering the RO tank via the generation hoses.

 

[MEP001]

- I havent seen it before, but I suppose its possible that city water pressure is pushing through your new pump & membrane, "generating" RO even though the pump isnt running.

Definitely happens if the inlet solenoid hangs open. Mine did it just a couple weeks ago and overfilled the tank because of a piece of debris.

 

[Rookie68]

Definitely happens if the inlet solenoid hangs open. Mine did it just a couple weeks ago and overfilled the tank because of a piece of debris.

So could be the float or the solenoid correct ?
What’s the best way to test ?

 

[Rookie68]

What is this called ? ?

 

[Greg Pack]

That's a solenoid plunger

 

[MEP001]

Those are the solenoids that let product run to the bays. Your inlet solenoid is where the water from the city goes to the system. If the system is running constantly, it could be the float. If the system is not running but the tank is overflowing, it may be the inlet solenoid. If you shut off the water supply and the tank stops overflowing, it's the solenoid.

 

[Mchas]

So my RO tank is over flowing. I gather I have a bad float. Which float performs which action ?

IE I have one at the bottom the tank that I assume tells the system to fill the tank.

I also have one at the top of the tank.

what’s odd is the motor and pump are off but I have a steady flow of water leaking out the hole the previous owners used for the floatselectrical cord.

open to ideas. Losing a fair amount of RO water.

The float at the top tells the system when the tank is full and to stop adding product.

The float at the bottom tells the system that sends the water to the bays to shut off if the water level gets too low so you don’t damage the pump.

Is your RO system running when this water continually pours out? Or is the system off?

 

[MEP001]

This one is configurable for both open-on-rise and close-on-rise, so it will replace either one.

RO Storage Tank Float Switch

RO Storage Tank Float Switch for high or low water cutoff, with 24V or 120V operation.

www.kleen-ritecorp.com