Resurrecting a R/O system. Please help me.

[Big Chris]

Everyone,

I need some help. I own an older SuperWash site, and when we (the Mrs & I) bought it, it was in rough shape. I've been rehabbing it for about a year now, and I finally got far enough down the list to begin to try and revive the RO system. It's current state is it's simply turned off and the system is bypassed so water runs through a granular charcoal filter and into the RO tank. So essentially I am only filtering water through a Charcoal filter and using that as spot free.

Why did I put this project off 'till the end? Turns out we have unusually high quality water in our township. Our tap water is 30-35 ppm, and about 2 grain hard. Ph is 6.8 and Cl is 1ppm. When this water dries on your windshield, can you see spots? Yes, but they are very hard to see, and pretty much only in direct sunlight. Our community water source is a rain fed reservoir on quartzite conglomerate bedrock.

At any rate, I want to get this system running and up the quality of our washes. My system is a Applied Membranes Unit. I gave them the model number & SN number. I asked for a schematic, owner manual, parts list, any documentation for the unit that they may have had. Nothing. Nada, zip, zilch. They tell me the unit was shipped in 1995 & offered to sell me a new system.

I tried turning the system on, and it powers up, but it wont shut off and will over fill my tank. I'm thinking of checking the float valve and the solenoid valves, anything else I should look for.

FWIW, I'm really mechanically inclined, and I'm a pretty good problem solver. However I have zero experience with an R/O system. Any pitfalls to avoid?

 

[AnalyticWash]

Before you do anything you probably want to verify the health of your carbon filter. I can almost guarantee this is toast. If you can't remove chlorine you will damage new RO membranes.

The systems are pretty basic. Pump pressurizes water and pushes it through the system with valves to adjust pressure. Usually controlled by a float.

Have you tested the TDS of the water coming out when you have it turned on?

 

[Keno]

Your membranes will be toast as well. Do you really need it up and using resources? Industry rule of thumb is below 50 ppm and 3 grains is considered spot free water. You maybe able to bypass 1 or 2 of those membranes depending on how many GPD you need to produce.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I tried turning the system on, and it powers up, but it wont shut off and will over fill my tank.

That sounds 100% like the float valve to me. Check it manually (flip it up/down by hand) to see if it works, it might just be tangled up or hitting the top of the tank. There should be a weight or something to make sure thats not happening. I've had to replace the floats several times, they seem very unreliable to me.

#1 though, since it runs, test the result - how many ppm? FYI I check that monthly. If the ppm is good, you could have it in service right now, just operate the refill manually until you get other issues sorted out.

IMO the carbon filter comments are true, but not urgent. At 1 ppm I'd argue that its more cost effective to run without it, unless you run a magnificently busy wash it could be years before it destroys the membrane.

 

[Big Chris]

Firstly thanks for the replies fellas:
I'll try to address everyone's comments.
Chlorine and the Charcoal filter. There is a chlorine test kit I found and have tested the water before and after the charcoal filter. Test kit shows 1ppm of chlorine before filter and 0ppm after. I was blown away that this seams to be working. I'll share a photo of the kit and the test vials later today.

Testing TDS before and after the RO unit. I do not have a TDS meter yet, my test results have come from my soap/chemical vendor. We've tested 3 times because he couldn't believe the results, these results agree with tests from a Sonny's sales rep who was here to evaluate the site for a new IBA machine. I have ordered a cheaper one from Amazon, and it should be here later today.

Do I need RO given my water quality? I am obsessive compulsive when it comes to equipment. It's just who I am, I can't help it. My setup only uses RO as an option in my self serve bays, and as a final low pressure rinse on my IBAs. So I really don't need a big volume of RO water. I don't have really stiff competition in the area, but due to the fact that our site was poorly run by the previous owners, I've been fighting an uphill battle with customer perception. I've been gaining ground here, our google business reviews and sales numbers have reflected that. And now that we're headed into the summer, and with the recent addition of Ceramic Wax & Air Shammes II's in the self serve bays, I feel like this will only help. Plus I already have this piece of equipment. It's taking up real estate in my motor room, might as well put it to use. Plus I have the rare opportunity to make really good water excellent.

Membranes.... Based on all the other things I've experienced here at this wash that were the result of the previous owner's lack of ambition or skill or a combination of both. I'm willing to bet that something malfunctioned on this unit, and rather than troubleshoot or fix it, the decision was made to bypass it. I have a spare membrane in a case in storage, no idea if its used or new. My point is given the good water quality, and the fact the the charcoal filter is still working, I'm willing to bet that the membranes have some life left in them. If not, I can't add TDS to my water with bad membranes can I? If I can get the unit running like it should, then I can make the decision whether or not to invest in new membranes.

Float Switch and Solenoid Valves My plan moving forward is to follow where the float switch wires go and test with a multimeter. If I find the switch to not open or close, I'll rig up a test switch and mess around with the unit and see what happens.

Further Questions Can someone explain to me the process of product water and reject water? I understand "product water" goes to the tank for use in the spot free rinse. I understand reject water is water that is "waste". In my setup my reject water goes to the bulk water tanks for my CAT 3535 pumps for my IBAs. These tanks have overflows that go to a drain. But can someone explain in reasonable detail the process of what going on step by step? I've read through the manuals of the GinSan units KR sells, and watched some Youtube videos on RO, but I'm still a little fuzzy here.

If my membranes are shot, is it possible to contaminate my water with them? i.e. can I add TDS to my product water with bad membranes, or will I just end up with too much waste water? Or will I just end up with product water that has the same TDS as my raw untreated water?

Is it possible that if my membranes were clogged or bad to cause some other problem? like an overpressure situation that causes a valve or pressure switch to fail?

Again, thanks everyone for your help and input...
Chris

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

I'll try a couple.

Further Questions Can someone explain to me the process of product water and reject water?

Yeah, conceptually RO is easy, its just a really high quality filter, so good that nothing gets through it except H2O. Even minerals like a calcium molecule dont get through it. Picture the filter in your Mr Coffee (I know, Im old), the good stuff goes through it, the grounds dont. Same for your RO machine, the good stuff (H2O) goes through, the bad stuff (everything except pure h2o) doesnt.
But then since it is such a good filter we need to add pressure to force the water through it, otherwise you'd get 3 drips per hour. So you have a pump+motor to force the water through the filter to "Make" RO water. So the "product water" is the pure H2O that made it through the filter (aka membrane), and the waste water is what got rinsed off the other side of the filter.
Simplified, all the rest of the equipment is to turn stuff on and off automatically, eg "tank is empty, open a solenoid to make" or "tank is full, shut er down" or "rinse off the filter/membrane" or "bay 2 rotary is calling for SFR, deliver product to the bay." etc.

Do I need RO given my water quality?

You answered your own question: "obsessive."
Also, I agree. I find that at 5 ppm I see spots, so I use RO to get down between 0 and 1 ppm.
Others may think thats a waste and I cant really argue with them because in many cases I think theyre correct, but I think 0-1 works better in my market.

Membranes...

In the big picture membranes are not very expensive, and easy to replace. Since you are rehabbing, if it were me I'd just put in a new one so that I know exactly what I have, no questions, no worries, no obsessively monitoring the tds and obsessively looking for spots.
I dont think you'll damage anything using the old one,... well, yes the membranes clog up, so you'll get less efficiency, and cause more wear on that motor. But I wouldnt worry about it until I had everything working and its making money for me. Then Id immediately improve it for long term efficiency and profitability. Stated more simply, Id get it working so I could start selling RO, then replace the membrane.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Chris - welcome to the world of RO's. I have lots of questions for you to troubleshoot the system and pinpoint any issues.

Even if those membranes were changed out a day before you bought the place, if that RO hasn't run in a year no doubt the membranes are fouled (and they may or may not be scaled as I haven't heard you mention a softener or anti-scalant injection). But before you get new membranes I'd get the system up and running, even if the permeate (RO water) quality isn't up to par.

Russ

 

[Rudy]

I have the identical unit, except two membranes.

RO machines need periodic service. Charcoal, Membranes, occasional electrical repair such as float switch.

Replace the carbon for sure. It's cheap insurance. (Wood Brothers Water can help get the right stuff)

High quality membranes can be purchased for less than $200 each. The hardest part changing the membranes is that HUGE snap ring in the end of the filter housing. (I've had good luck with these: Ozmosis XLE-4040 Reverse Osmosis RO Membrane for Water Filtration System 4"x40" | eBay

The float switch usually either works, or it doesn't.

With your clean water, you'd have at least 7 years before another major servicing (depending on how much chlorine you charcoal has to remove).

Lastly....

It hasn't been mentioned, but is the Procon Pump putting out good pressure? In thirty years, I've replaced the pump a time or two... the carbon vanes do eventually wear. The motor (mines a Baldor) runs like a tank, but I've replaced the start/run capacitor a time or two in 30 years.

 

[Big Chris]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Rudy good info there on the ebay membrane, thanks so much for sharing. Paul and Russ, thanks again for your input. Paul I'd love to com visit your wash someday, as we're literally only about an hour away from each other.

I got to tinker with it this weekend as it was a washout here in North Eastern Pa. Man, it was a total bummer, as March didn't have a snow worth salting for, and early April was a gray and chilly. Here we are in prime pollen season, and this weekend was a total loss with steady light rain both Saturday and Sunday.........

Back to the RO system. I got it running, I rigged up a temporary switch for the float switch inputs. Turns out the float switch was fine. The culprit was the main normally closed solenoid was stuck open. The plunger in the solenoid was a little crusty and would stick. Gave that a good cleaning and careful attention, and seems good to go. For those just joining, my initial problem was the system would not shut off and would overfill my tank.

Here's where I am at. My system pressure gauge is broken, got a new one on the way. My product water has the same amount of TDS as my input water. So the system does nothing. Here's another interesting observation. When I was troubleshooting the system and found the solenoid issue, I noticed that when the Procon pump was NOT running there was a large amount of water running through the RO unit into my RO tank.

My output from the unit to the tank is a 1/2" ID hose. With the pump off and the solenoid open, the system was flowing what you would expect 40 psi flowing through a 1/2" hose to look like. And with the pump off, the product water gpm gauge was reading 5 gpm.

I know this isn't right. Somethings wrong. I understand that the membranes should be very hard to pass water through at 40 psi, and that with the pump off and everything open, the product water should be just a tiny trickle. I plan on opening up the pressure vessels where the membranes are this evening to inspect. But aside from an absent or missing membrane, what would cause this?

Chris

 

[Rudy]

First, it sounds like the main Normally open solenoid valve has a bad diaphragm. It's the solenoid that the 1" line from the Charcoal filter taps into.

On my unit, its a Dayton 1A579. The rebuild kit is a Dayton 2DAD2. I bet yours could be the same.

The failed diaphragm allows water flow at the normal city water pressure.....probably around 50psi. (On my unit, it's next to impossible to remove the 1A579 due to glued fittings. I WAS able to separate the unit after removing the 5 or 6 small hex bolts holding the solenoid together. I replaced the diaphragm without removing the solenoid itself.)

Next....

If the TDS is the same after as it is coming in.....you have a hole (or holes) in your membranes. In essence, there's no "filtering" occurring.

 

[Rudy]

Here's what you likely need.

DAYTON, 1 in, Valve Rebuild Kit - 2DAD2|066047 - Grainger

Shop around. Prices are all over the place.....

 

[Big Chris]

Yeah the solenoid is fixed, in the attached image the plunger (cylinder with slot cut into it) with the red spring behind it was sticky, resulting in the solenoid failing open. I cleaned the bore that the plunger goes into with a pipe cleaner style wire brush. Seems to be working fine now. The kit you show looks exactly like what I have inside my solenoid, and yep it's 1 inch npt.


On to my current issue:

Not only is my TDS going in the same as going out, but my flowrate with the solenoid open and pump turned off seems not to jive with what I would expect. There is almost no restriction. I throttle my city water pressure to 40 psi. ( I have a 2" main coming in) My "product water line" is 1/2" ID and what flows out of the unit at with the pump off and the solenoid open is exactly what you'd expect 40psi out of a 1/2ID hose to look like. I'm guessing I have a hole in a membrane, or there might be missing a membrane from one of the pressure vessels. I'm busting out the big snap ring plyers tonight.

Any tips on where I might find the filter element for my sediment filter?

 

[Rudy]

1 Micron Sediment Filter, 2.5 in. Diameter | 200625 (kleen-ritecorp.com)

I can't remember if you need a 5 or 1 micron....?????

BTW, when you remove that large snap ring, but sure to keep it covered with a shop rag or similar. That thing can really fly and hurt you if you aren't careful. It takes a pretty big set of snap ring pliers. Just sayin.....

 

[Big Chris]

Yeah Rudy, I have a large snap ring tool, you actually screw the handle to open or close the jaws/pins. I'm wearing safety glasses, mechanics gloves and I'm thinking to myself as I have a snap ring loaded and ready to launch into orbit, there has to be a better way to secure this end onto this unit.

So I find I'm missing a membrane in one of the pressure vessels, thus the observed easy flow out of the unit.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

BINGO!

 

[Keno]

As stated earlier, your membranes are toast, they can't handle sitting without use. I would determine how many GPD you need and buy membranes accordingly. Some minor replumbing will be required to change # of membranes.

 

[Big Chris]

Can someone please help me identify the direction new membranes get installed? One end has an o-ring/seal the other end does not.

Please see the attached pics I edited with arrows. The ORANGE arrows are product water and exit out the bottom of the pressure vessels. The BLUE arrows are raw water or reject water.

Thanks in advance. I did not yet purchase new membranes, but when I do, it'd be super cool if I installed them correctly.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

The black seal at one end of the membrane is called a "brine seal." In your photo above, the feedwater would come from the left, and would try to force the brine seal open, which makes it contact the inside of the membrane housing.

The permeate comes out of the central stem - either end. If you hold the membrane vertical and drop a bb into the central stem it should come out the other end. The concentrate would come out of the body of the element (in this case on the right end).

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

So for the housing that is fed directly from the pump... the water enters from the bottom so the brine seal should be at the bottom. The reject from membrane one feeds the top of membrane 2. So for membrane 2 the brine seal should be at the top. I can't really tell from your photos, but membrane 3 should be fed the reject of membrane 2. so the brine seal on membrane 3 should be at the bottom.

We can get on another video call to verify.

Russ