help mixing liquid soap without a hydrominder

[area123]

This carwash has an older setup, it has large mixing tanks where the previous owner mixed powder. He just added 1 quart of his powder to about 20 gallons of water in his soap tanks. And his adjustable soap meters are set to about 6 GPH. I think our CAT pumps output a little less than 4gpm.

So now that the powder is almost used up, we need to figure out the mixing rate for the liquid soap we have.

The soap we are switching to is the JBS Fonic. I think it is simlar to a KR ultra concentrate in that you add 2 buckets of water before it is ready to use.

I'm not opposed to experimenting a little but just figured I'd ask for a good place to start. There isn't really a mix ratio given on the bucket or on KR's site. Their soaps say about 600-900:1.

One question about that, is the 600:1 at the wand? so for every 600 gallons of wash water at the wand, I dispense 1 gallon (1/5th of my bucket of soap). That works out to about 171 minutes of washing (at 3.5gpm) per gallon.

So, until we get a hydrominder installed to meter this soap, we will have to mix it this way by hand. It's really not a big deal, it takes 5 minutes to fill up a soap tank every few days.

 

[rph9168]

You didn't specify how large the mixing tank is. If it is very large it might be a direct draw which in that case just have the right ratio in the tank. If you are injecting it I assume you may be using a Dema or similar injection system. In that case you need to multiply the ratio in the tank by the ratio of your injector. You definitely need to install a hydrominder to get more consistent results.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The specified dilution ratio is the dilution for "use" . So, if water is added after it leaves your tank that will change the dilution from the tank to what is used. If your Cat ouputs 4 gmp or 240 GPH, and the soap pump is set at and accurately puts out 6 GPH, then the ratio is 240 / 6 or 40 to one. For an end ratio of 600 / 1 you would put 15 gallons of water in the tank and one gallon of concentrate which gives you 15/1. Multiply the 40 to one of addittional dilution and you get 600 to one. (Not perfect calculation because the 240 GPH of the pump already contains the diluted solution, but close enough.) In any event I would probably try 10/1 to start an see how the effect is. You could always add more water as long as the show and efficacy is there.

 

[area123]

rph, we are not using dema injectors, just an adjustable metering valve. It is set to about 6 gph. We can't use injectors yet because we have the gravity or zero pressure tanks on the suction side (with float valves, etc), we don't have any pressure at the suction.

Earl, your calculations make sense to me. Now that I understand the 600:1 is the "final dilution" and is what you want on the car.. I was unsure about that.

Is 600:1 a good ratio for the JBS soap? I called Kleen rite and they weren't exactly sure what ratio to use with it. He suggested 1/4-1/2 oz per gallon of water final, which is about 256-512:1 as a starting point. I'm sure we'll end up doing some experimentation. the hydrominder would be easy to install, but just have to find the time. And buy one..

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Earl Weiss]

. I'm sure we'll end up doing some experimentation. the hydrominder would be easy to install, but just have to find the time. And buy one..

Thanks for the tips!

Takes about the same amount of time to buy 1, 0r 3 as it took you to make the posts on the BBS. It will save you a boatload of time later.

 

[2Biz]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here is the effect of water hardness. It doesn't take many grains to kill soap!

For comparison...I use Radiance 551 Black Cherry (Warsaw Products) that recommends 90-120 to 1 dilution ratio...So what is that ratio exactly? Well, not even my distributor or salesman could tell me. After much testing, I run it at 2457 to 1 final ratio! Orange tip on the hydrominder (64-1) and draw that mixture in the HP pump at 10 oz per minute...My Cat 310's pump exactly 3gpm, so that ratio is 38.4 to 1...38.4 x 64 is 2457 to 1 final ratio using the same formula Earl used. So my point....You can't always go with whats on the container. You'll have to see what works for you based on your water hardness and the show you're looking for.

My soap goes on like paint at that ratio! But I achieve that using zero grain hardness water. Zero Grain water makes a huge difference when it comes to the amount of soap you'll use....

 

[I.B. Washincars]

2Biz, could you be a little more specific

 

[2Biz]

I could! I thought I held back a little this time!

 

[area123]

That's great info. Newbie question.. How do you get the water to zero grains hardness, and what does that actually mean? We use softeners but I've not tested the water other than with my electronic hardness meter. And I don't remember what it said.

 

[MEP001]

A softener that's working properly and set up right should bring the hardness to or near zero grains per gallon.

 

[2Biz]

That's great info. Newbie question.. How do you get the water to zero grains hardness, and what does that actually mean? We use softeners but I've not tested the water other than with my electronic hardness meter. And I don't remember what it said.

Are you sure you're using a hardness tester or are you using a TDS meter? I think there is a conversion to hardness if using a TDS meter, but using a hardness test kit is more accurate (I think). I use this one.

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-2725-kit-for-water-hardness.aspx

 

[Earl Weiss]

My soap goes on like paint at that ratio! But I achieve that using zero grain hardness water. Zero Grain water makes a huge difference when it comes to the amount of soap you'll use....

I have no experience with this product. I won't dispute that it gives a good foaming show at this dilution. Can't help but wonder how the cleaning efficacy is affected.

 

[2Biz]

The point I was trying to make instead of giving a long winded explanation (like I’m accused of doing! ) is water hardness makes a huge difference in delivery and show at the wand regardless of what soap you're using. When water hardness is zero and keeping the same 10oz flow into the pump, going from 64-1 to 48-1 on the hydrominder makes the soap cycle look like milk! 64-1 is the sweet spot for me.

About a month ago, my soap went dead in the bays…All bays…Long story short... After working backwards, my water hardness was coming in the Er at 14 grains. Normal is 4-5 grains and I soften from there. At 14 grains I had run out of softening capacity and the hardness killed my soap completely. It had me pulling my hair out till I figured it out. Turns out the water treatment plant stopped softening the water because of equipment failure. Naturally they didn’t tell anybody….

I would have never discovered the difference hardness made until this happened. It might pay to do the homework to see if softening water down to zero helps the bottom line. I can tell you, when my water was at about 10-14 grains, I had to increase the hydrominder tip x 40% bigger to get the same show. To me, that proved at just how valuable a good working softener is.

 

[mac]

Look, here's an idea. If your chemical supplier can not tell you how to set up and properly mix the product he is selling, hang up on the idiot. Yes, the idiot. As someone who tries to make a living doing this, I run into this quite frequently. There are a lot of people selling chemicals that can not hit their butt with both hands at the same time. Your chemicals are an extremely important part of your business. To give you an example, when I set up a wash, I test the water, the softener, and charcoal filter for the RO. Next I check the screen on the inlet to the hydrominder to make sure it's clean, and then I replace the diaphragm in the hydrominder. And it goes without saying that we make sure the tank and its screen are clean. I then set the tip in the hydrominder for the recommended mix ratio. Now here's a surprise, many times, and I mean many, the mix ratio on the bucket is pure fantasy. My guess is that the sales people, not the chemists, put that there. Once that is done I do a surfactant flow test to make sure the hydrominder is mixing at the proper ratio. THEN, we go look at the product as it's applied to see that it has good show, aroma, and is doing its job. Sorry to go off on a rant, but I just get so tired of these bone head salesmen who sell on price and just drop off a bucket of something. The advice given here is pretty much spot on, but it is the salesman's job to do the things I mentioned.

 

[Randy]

Mac, I couldn’t agree more. But you’re talking about is really just basic maintenance, Hydrominder screens, suction screen, those are things the owner should be checking and cleaning. We’ve run off every soap salesman that’s ever come knocking on the door. Over the years we’ve learned how to do the car wash chemicals ourselves, it’s not that hard, it’s just basic chemistry. The dilution information on the label is normally just a starting point and calling discount house about how to use product is like calling Santa Claus. If you want it done right, do it yourself, if you don’t know how to do it learn how. The ones I really like are the ones who buy dishwashing soap at Dollar Tree or Dollar General.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

The ones I really like are the ones who buy dishwashing soap at Dollar Tree or Dollar General.

I hear you Randy...what losers. Everyone knows that Family Dollar has the best stuff.

 

[Randy]

I hear you Randy...what losers. Everyone knows that Family Dollar has the best stuff.

We don't have Family Dollar stores here. It must be a Midwest chain

 

[rph9168]

A good chemical rep can be an asset to a car wash operation. However they are few and far in between.

 

[mac]

You know there seems to be two classes of operators emerging in our socalled industry. The group that visits here is one, and everyone else is the other. I dislike operators mixing their chemicals because I've just seen too many times how they screw it up. To give you an example, a recent new customer told me how he was told by the previous owner how to mix and save money. He was mixing a 5 gallon bucket of soap to a 30 gallon drum and filling it with water. The previous owner told him how super concentrated it was. The bucket even said to mix 100:1. So they did this and the 30 gallons went through a hydrominder and lasted two weeks. Aside from this site, there aren't too many places where an operator can learn this stuff. I am still amazed when I meet new operators and mention this site, how many have never heard about it. I put the site address on my card for them. (Jackson, you can thank me at the show.) To those of you that mix and save, my hat is off to you. As consumers of chemicals I just think that we should demand that the rep know how to set things up. I might just be tilting at windmills, but we have to start someplace.

 

[soonermajic]

So Mac, are you saying that the previous owner gave the new owner sound advice? Thus saying the 30 gallons, going through the hydrominder in 2 weeks, is a good thing? I'm new, & confused as hel