Are all titration kits the same?

[Buzzie8]

I am sampling different presoak HPH powders for my in bay automatics. I started with Blendco but felt they were too expensive and I could get a powder more reasonably priced. I went to Kleen-Rite and used their but found that to get the same titration of Blendco's hph powder that I needed larger tips and went through more product. So I tried KO presoak powder. When I titrate with KO's titration kit it takes about 55 drops to neutralize, I thought that this meant I was mixing way too strong and needed to reduce product with water mix. Just out of curiosity I titrated with Blendco's titration kit and it only took 10 drops to neutralize. So now I am confused. If I went by Blendco's titration kit results I would be running too weak and by KO's I am running too strong. Are titration kits designed for the manufacturer or is there a way to get a unbiased test result? Any comments welcomed.

 

[smokun]

Test Kits

No, not all titration kits are the same, although the answers they offer use the same principle. Shop for a variety of sources. Check by searching Google.

Many operators seeking quicker results often use litmus paper instead... as a supplemental test. The test is pH sensitive and offers a variety of quick readings of any solution. Simply dip or drip on the paper and wait until it changes color. Match the color to the accompanying chart, and you have the pH of the solution.

-Steve

 

[rph9168]

You have to know whether the product is alkaline or acidic to titrate. Titration is used to determine the strength of the solution, not the pH. Litmus paper would be useless unless you did not know whether the product is high or low pH. Blendco's titration system determines the strength of the solution in terms of alkalinity or acidity that is present. You should be able to use it to determine the same with other products.

 

[Buzzie8]

I understand the basic concept and I know that I am testing for the alkalinity level of both high PH's in for both manufactuers. What I can't understand is why one titration kit checks out at 10 drops (Blendco) and the other checks out at 55 drops (KO). This is the amount of drops before it turns back to yellow (or neutralizes). How can they be that different?

 

[JIMT]

I have seen two different acids A1 and A2. A2 is about 4 times stronger than A1. There may be different ones from other companies.
JIMT

 

[Jony82]

I understand the basic concept and I know that I am testing for the alkalinity level of both high PH's in for both manufactuers. What I can't understand is why one titration kit checks out at 10 drops (Blendco) and the other checks out at 55 drops (KO). This is the amount of drops before it turns back to yellow (or neutralizes). How can they be that different?

Your Blendco titrating solution is stronger. The amount of drops you use to neutralize your solution is irrelevant without knowing the strength of your titrator. Your KO titrating solution looks to be 5.5 times weaker than your Blendco titrating solution. Different strengths = different amounts to neutralize.

So: in a nutshell your titration kits are different. If you can remember your Blendco HPH titrating numbers, you can compare your Blendco and KO titrations with the Blendco titrating kit to determine which one is a better value. Use the same kit on both solutions for comparison.

If you need furthur help, let me know.

 

[bmills]

You get what you pay for.

It shouldn't take too long to see where this is going. Buzzie has already discovered that the items compared to HPH are of a weaker alkalinity. Next step is to use the same titration kit to compare all contenders. Then compare for same alkalinity on the car and viola! You get what you pay for and perhaps even more.

Price of acquisition is not the resolution, its the cost of application that is the determining factor.

Apples vs. Apples is the only fair comparison and this isn't even taking into consideration shipping, storage space, shelf life, ease of application, versatility in application of both alkalinity and blended surfactants, color, foamy show, clingability, fragrance, etc.

No company could maintain its street pricing and survive in this market place if it weren't competitive on all fronts of comparison.

 

[Buzzie8]

Actually, I do not think this is going where you think it is going. If I understood the last thread your assumption is that the Blendco HPH is stronger and will use less chemical than the KO, but in reality to get to the recommended level that KO wants touchless automatics I needed to reduce the amount of chemical and just today I reduced the tip size. From my conversations with KO I should be at 28 drops or 400:1 ratio. Fortunately I have not changed the tips prior to today and when I was running Blendco I had a larger tip to get to 25 drops of their titrating solution. I will check with my Blendco rep on Monday as to what dilution ratio they recommend for this climate and this time of the year.

 

[Buzzie8]

While we are on the subject. Has anyone tried running straight "flake" sodium hydroxide? This is the main chemical in all of these powders. I was considering buying it off a local chemical supplier.

 

[Greg Pack]

I use NaOH in liquid form, 50% dilution.

 

[Buzzie8]

Do you dilute it or do you buy it 50% diluted?

 

[smokun]

Time to do some homework.

You have to know whether the product is alkaline or acidic to titrate. Titration is used to determine the strength of the solution, not the pH. Litmus paper would be useless unless you did not know whether the product is high or low pH. Blendco's titration system determines the strength of the solution in terms of alkalinity or acidity that is present. You should be able to use it to determine the same with other products.

I suggest you do some homework on litmus paper.

 

[Greg Pack]

Do you dilute it or do you buy it 50% diluted?

I buy it in liquid form- 50% membrane grade I believe is what the label says. It is a clear, colorless liquid. It's very heavy, much heavier than water.

 

[RykoPro]

Titration is used to find the recommended dilution ratio determined by the manufacture to get the best cleaning results from their product. You cannot use brand "A" titration kit for brand "B" chemicals and visa versa. Before Ryko went to the titration method of calibration, they used PH testing. There were no titration recommendations or kit so you had to use the PH method. All PH testing methods should yield the same results, we set the acidic product at one level and the alkaline at another, any kit or PH method could be used in this process. You accuracy depended on the quality of the kit, how well you were able to follow directions and proper collection of the product to be tested. We found that when comparing what Ryko recommended as a titration setting and what they recommended as a PH value, both were almost identical. Two different ways to get the same results; the manufactures recommended final dilution ratio. Is this the perfect setting for a particular site, it should be very close, but only real world testing and tweaking will tell.

 

[Greg Pack]

As far as titration vs ph- I'm in the titration camp. this is an experiment I performed in the past with a TC solution with a digital ph meter:

percent solution PH Titration

100% 12.67 ph 22 drops
50 % 12.67 ph 12 drops
33 % 12.58 ph 7-8 drops
25 % 12.49 ph 6 drops

As you can see, the ph barely budged, but titration revealed a much more accurate percentage of the solution. As RPH suggested I would use the blendco titration kit to compare levels of alkalinity between various products.

From a alkalinity standpoint, I do not think you will find any "one drum" products as strong as a two part system mixed together at the point of dilution. The two products at those concentration levels don't play well together, you have to use water as a referee.

 

[Mr.Aap]

RPH is right on the money.....You can use any kit to titrate any products if you know what you are doing....It's called a competitive titration.....You have to establish a baseline with the product you want to titrate first and go from there and establish your titration factor and there you have it.....Testing your chemicals with PH strips will not even get you in the ballpark.......

 

[Back4More]

What would you be doing with that strength liquid Sodium Hydroxide? Mixing it with a dual injector?

 

[Mr.Aap]

Your playing with fire using free caustic like that....Prepare your-self for some damage claims....Especially when it get hot outside...

 

[Greg Pack]

I mix it at the hydrominder with a dual tip eductor. I've been using it for about four years and recognize the risks. It is not for the novice or casual operator. If the solution is allowed to get too strong it can stain black anodized trim on some model vehicles. Clearcoat paint finishes can easily handle the stronger solutions.

 

[rph9168]

A solution like that would also blacken the plastic type chrome that is on most vehicles and haze any finish that is oxidized. In addition you are stripping any wax protection that is on the vehicle.

I know you have been using it for a while but I think you are playing with fire. Even at a low dilution ratio the potential for damage is great especially for frequent customers.