Need some help! Foam Brush Not Foamy

[KevinR]

So I just purchased this carwash that was built in 2007. This is all new to me so im trying to learn it. Everyone in the small town is complaining the carwash doesnt put out any soap. I originally thought the soap tanks mounted on the wall maybe were plugged. I removed line off the bottom and cleaned the check valve but that wasnt the problem. So we took top of the guage down by pump off and flushed with air thru the line. Still no change. The soap is red but water coming out of the brush has no color to it and very minimal soap residue and zero foam. Its not drawing hardly anything out of the holding tank on the wall. For whatever reason the pump isnt pulling it into the pump housing and passing it along down the line. I have messed with both black knob valves on top side of the flow gauges but no positive change. The one that is not marked comes from regular soap mixing tank mounted on wall.

Im stumped, Only thing we havent checked is the area between the flow meter before the pump and the solenoid mounted behind the pump. Im guessing its not a clog just a poor design. But im hoping someone can point me in the right direction to have a foamy brush. Also Just FYI this is a 2 SS and 1 Automatic bay.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

What is your water hardness?

 

[Car_Wash_Guy]

Hard to imagine this setup as mine is way different but Id block off all other chem/water inputs forcing only the FB to flow and go from there.

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

First thing i would do would be looking for some new or used equipment pumpstand somewhere gut that whole equipment room what a relic to be built in 2007 if its a system like what i am thinking for foam brush with a well pump and pressure tank setup they where used in the 70s and everyone went to flowjet with Air setups way more reliable and consistant product. I would replace all old pickup tubes and footvalves going to foam brush product and clean your hydrominder tips and make sure the hydrominders are sucking drawing product and working. What size tip are you running? Was this Carwash sitting not in use for a long time and you just bought it? Make sure your pump is working and actually pumping and the expansion tank is not full of water. This may not be the news you want to hear but some new and used equipment would be all the difference for your site. How many functions do you have? A 2/1would be easy to fix up & Welcome to the form!

 

[KevinR]

What is your water hardness?

Iknow it has a propack h100 water softener system but i dont know anything about it. I dont know how to test the hardness of the water either.

 

[KevinR]

Hard to imagine this setup as mine is way different but Id block off all other chem/water inputs forcing only the FB to flow and go from there.

I turned off the valve allowing regular soap to be drawn into the FB pump and it still didnt change anything or not enough to notice. Its like the pump isnt drawing the FB soap in.

 

[KevinR]

First thing i would do would be looking for some new or used equipment pumpstand somewhere gut that whole equipment room what a relic to be built in 2007 if its a system like what i am thinking for foam brush with a well pump and pressure tank setup they where used in the 70s and everyone went to flowjet with Air setups way more reliable and consistant product. I would replace all old pickup tubes and footvalves going to foam brush product and clean your hydrominder tips and make sure the hydrominders are sucking drawing product and working. What size tip are you running? Was this Carwash sitting not in use for a long time and you just bought it? Make sure your pump is working and actually pumping and the expansion tank is not full of water. This may not be the news you want to hear but some new and used equipment would be all the difference for your site. How many functions do you have? A 2/1would be easy to fix up & Welcome to the form!

I have checked the hydrominder setups and they are working and pulling soap. I havent checked tips to see sizing but I did flush lines out between them and the pump and didnt change anything. Functions on SS bays show Triple Foam Conditioner, Foam Brush, High Pressure Rinse, High Pressure Wax, Clear Coat Protectant. Im not against removing the current FB system and installing a new setup as long as the cost isnt crazy. Otherwise I may want to wait a month or two and plan out a reorganization inside that place. I will check the foot valves. The pickup tubes are good as I can watch it draw the red FB soap up when i manually operate the hydrominder. This gravity system of soap from tank to pump just isnt getting enough soap in the system.

And Thank You for the welcome, I have looked around here a little and have been impressed with the professionalism and willingness to help others.

 

[OurTown]

Iknow it has a propack h100 water softener system but i dont know anything about it. I dont know how to test the hardness of the water either.

Get one of these:

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-2725-hach-145300-total-water-hardness-titration-test-kit.aspx

 

[Earl Weiss]

. For whatever reason the pump isnt pulling it into the pump housing and passing it along down the line.

Pull line off exit side of pump and see if it is pushing soap out at pressure - If not - replace pump. If o, hook an air line to the hose that exited the pump and use it to blows air down the line and make sure air comes out at brush. If not - remove brush at hand le an see if air comes out . Try same where hose enters handle . If not replace line from ER. Also check any solenoid valves between exit side of Pump and FB for opening.

 

[Eric H]

I skimmed the previous comments so excuse me if this has already been discussed.
Have you checked the tip on the hydrominder? If it is clogged it obviously won’t draw. If the screen on the hose connection is clogged the volume of water won’t be enough to draw chemical at the proper rate. (Chemical will appear diluted). If the Eductor (black plastic piece that holds the mettering tip) has a small crack the hydrominder will suck air and the chemical will not draw at the correct rate.
Also, is the metering tip the correct size? The previous person may have had no idea what they were doing and used the wrong tip.
it’s important to note that on a foam brush system the air will reduce chemical usage by about 50%. That means that even though you are using a tip with a dilution ratio of 100:1 on the chemical, when you add air into the mix your final dilution ratio at the foam brush head will be closer to 50:1.

 

[KevinR]

Get one of these:

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-2725-hach-145300-total-water-hardness-titration-test-kit.aspx

I have it in the cart and will get it ordered today. Thank You for sending me the link. I figured there was a way to test it but when there are so many different things needing some attention its hard to determine where to start.

 

[KevinR]

Pull line off exit side of pump and see if it is pushing soap out at pressure - If not - replace pump. If o, hook an air line to the hose that exited the pump and use it to blows air down the line and make sure air comes out at brush. If not - remove brush at hand le an see if air comes out . Try same where hose enters handle . If not replace line from ER. Also check any solenoid valves between exit side of Pump and FB for opening.

I will give this a shot, I do know there is no clog at handle as we have taken the brushes off the hose and water comes out but its just clear water with minimal soap residue. Not enough to have any color change and im using cherry colored soap. But I will try and pull lines off pump today and see if there is any obstructions.

 

[KevinR]

I skimmed the previous comments so excuse me if this has already been discussed.
Have you checked the tip on the hydrominder? If it is clogged it obviously won’t draw. If the screen on the hose connection is clogged the volume of water won’t be enough to draw chemical at the proper rate. (Chemical will appear diluted). If the Eductor (black plastic piece that holds the mettering tip) has a small crack the hydrominder will suck air and the chemical will not draw at the correct rate.
Also, is the metering tip the correct size? The previous person may have had no idea what they were doing and used the wrong tip.
it’s important to note that on a foam brush system the air will reduce chemical usage by about 50%. That means that even though you are using a tip with a dilution ratio of 100:1 on the chemical, when you add air into the mix your final dilution ratio at the foam brush head will be closer to 50:1.

I believe the hydrominder is working as it should, it does pull in soap and the liquid in the tank is a bright red and not watered down. I havent checked to confirm the tip ratio to see if it is appropriate with the soap recomendation. I have no air injection on this system. I feel my problem lies between the holding tank and the fluid going out to the brush. But I have flushed the line from tank to flow rate guage so that narrows it down to the line going into the pump, the pump, and the line coming out. But im really wondering if its just a poor design and not intended to be a "Foaming Brush" just some cheap crappy brush option.

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

I believe the hydrominder is working as it should, it does pull in soap and the liquid in the tank is a bright red and not watered down. I havent checked to confirm the tip ratio to see if it is appropriate with the soap recomendation. I have no air injection on this system. I feel my problem lies between the holding tank and the fluid going out to the brush. But I have flushed the line from tank to flow rate guage so that narrows it down to the line going into the pump, the pump, and the line coming out. But im really wondering if its just a poor design and not intended to be a "Foaming Brush" just some cheap crappy brush option.

You have the exact old school system that i thought this whole time. Guys he may have to run a Big Big Tip like Red or Bigger ( back in the day some operators ran no tips at all with this setup honestly) on the tip chart and put some type of foaming material in the brush handles for it to have a chance to foam like a scrubby pad with no air on this well pump setup you will always be chasing the consistancy there even with a Top name brand Quality foam brush chemical. This was the first style systems of foam brush back in the very Early days at a self serve. I would be looking hard for a 2-3 bay used self serve pumpstand and redo everything would be cheaper buy far in long run for sure than peice milling new low pressure panels and even the pumps you have are old school Cat pumps they look like the Piston style you want the plunger style 310s or 5CP's. You would be miles and miles ahead and so much less headaches in your future. Its Some older Operator gentleman here that knows exactly what this setup is also and will chime in. I dont think you have Foaming tire cleaner or Foaming presoak either with this setup right?

 

[KevinR]

You have the exact old school system that i thought this whole time. Guys he may have to run a Big Big Tip like Red or Bigger ( back in the day some operators ran no tips at all with this setup honestly) on the tip chart and put some type of foaming material in the brush handles for it to have a chance to foam like a scrubby pad with no air on this well pump setup you will always be chasing the consistancy there even with a Top name brand Quality foam brush chemical. This was the first style systems of foam brush back in the very Early days at a self serve. I would be looking hard for a 2-3 bay used self serve pumpstand and redo everything would be cheaper buy far in long run for sure than peice milling new low pressure panels and even the pumps you have are old school Cat pumps they look like the Piston style you want the plunger style 310s or 5CP's. You would be miles and miles ahead and so much less headaches in your future. Its Some older Operator gentleman here that knows exactly what this setup is also and will chime in. I dont think you have Foaming tire cleaner or Foaming presoak either with this setup right?

I dont think I can justify the new pump stands at this point if they are $30-45k from Kleen-rite. Adding a new low pressure board and a compressor wouldnt be to bad. And no we dont have foaming tire cleaner or Foaming presoak. The soap ratio in the holding tank is pretty soap mix but thats understandable if this is the most they can get this system to put out to the brush.

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

I dont think I can justify the new pump stands at this point if they are $30-45k from Kleen-rite. Adding a new low pressure board and a compressor wouldnt be to bad. And no we dont have foaming tire cleaner or Foaming presoak. The soap ratio in the holding tank is pretty soap mix but thats understandable if this is the most they can get this system to put out to the brush.

Used Equipment goes a long ways at a Self serve carwash done correctly.

 

[KevinR]

Used pumpstand 5,000 all new lines and some spare parts like 10k in total job its just a 2 Bay Self serve easy peasy

When I hear the term pump stand it makes me think of a metal shelf to put the crap on. But used for $5k Im guessing your not talking about just a metal stand. Is there anywhere in particular that is a good place to shop for used equipment?

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

When I hear the term pump stand it makes me think of a metal shelf to put the crap on. But used for $5k Im guessing your not talking about just a metal stand. Is there anywhere in particular that is a good place to shop for used equipment?

The Term "Pumpstand" is the Heart of a SS Carwash where you will have your High pressure pumps,Tire cleaner,Presoak,Foam brush,HP clear Coat and HP soap solinods ideally all mounted together on 1 peice of High Quality Stainless Steel frame ideally with all the chemical and holding tanks together and compact. Lord have Mercy Type in Self Service Carwash Pumpstand in google and click images. Look at those setups to compared to your Well Pump setup and you will see. The search engine on this form would be very benifical to you. Used equipment start at Carwash Consignment & look at this forms for sale section time to time would be a good place to start check with your local distributor see what he has and build a relationship and learn more. Kleenrite is not the only place to buy parts and equipment you will see if you search.
I am done with the Pro Tips tonight i will start charging after this.

 

[KevinR]

The Term "Pumpstand" is the Heart of a SS Carwash where you will have your High pressure pumps,Tire cleaner,Presoak,Foam brush,HP clear Coat and HP soap solinods all mounted together on 1 peice of High quality Stainless Steel frame ideally with all the chemical and holding tanks. Lord have Mercy Type in Self Service Carwash Pumpstand in google and click images. Look at those setups to compared to your Well Pump setup and you will see. The search engine on this form would be very benifical to you. Used equipment start at Carwash Consignment & look at this forms for sale section time to time would be a good place to start check with your local distributor see what he has and build a relationship and learn more. Kleenrite is not the only place to buy parts and equipment you will see if you search.
I am done with the Pro Tips tonight i will start charging after this.

Well I am very grateful for the helpful information and your time and everyone elses that has provided input to my problem. I think its pretty well been determined that the problem lies with the type of setup I have not an intermal problem within it. So I will do some shopping and see what I can come up with. Again Thank You All!

 

[OurTown]

I have no air injection on this system.

Are you sure about this?