Presoaks Stacked Or Don't Stack

[Rickdm1722]

Hi Everyone,

Omaha Nebraska

If a High Ph at 90:1 lets say, is stacked on top of a Low PH at 90:1, doesn't this just neutralize the presoaks, or is there an actual reaction that happens.

1) Presoak Low - Dwell - Presoak High - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse

Or

2) Presoak Low - Presoak High - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse

Or

3) Presoak Low - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse - Presoak high - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse

Thanks

 

[washnshine]

Hi Everyone,

Omaha Nebraska

If a High Ph at 90:1 lets say, is stacked on top of a Low PH at 90:1, doesn't this just neutralize the presoaks, or is there an actual reaction that happens.

High and low are not necessarily neutralized. 8-14 is high, and 6-0 is low. Putting on a 14 pH and then a 3 pH is different than a 12 pH and then a 3 and so fourth. Many variables on both sides of the scale.

 

[Rickdm1722]

High and low are not necessarily neutralized. 8-14 is high, and 6-0 is low. Putting on a 14 pH and then a 3 pH is different than a 12 pH and then a 3 and so fourth. Many variables on both sides of the scale.

I understand the scale of PH. I know trial and error is everything. Also know that it depends on where you at in the county. I'm just wonder if it's better to:

Presoak - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse - Presoak - Dwell - High Pressure Rinse

My brain tells me that this would be the most effected way to let each presoak do its job and not have to work through another presoak that has been applied prior. I know this would add time to the wash cycle but is it more effective.

 

[washnshine]

I do not know if any operators rinse between the two applications of presoak. That doesn’t mean you can’t try it - you might find success with that approach- I just have not seen it done.

 

[ShinePro]

Hi ph presoak then lo ph pre soak
Then rinse


In an application of alkaline presoak (hi) first - alkaline hits the neutral surface and begins to eat dirt. There is nothing on the car that keeps the alkaline from working to its max efficiency.
If lo ph acid is applied first. Then the alkaline has to neutralize the acid before it can work- thus creating the need for more alkaline to be applied.

Plus- alkaline is the expensive product - acid is cheap

The reaction - or I like to use the term “heat” created when acid is applied on top of alkaline is what gets the dirt and grime to move. That is why “washnshine” said what he did previously. You want that reaction! On my machines - Razors- arch speed is slow for the alkaline ( 25 drops in summer) then we apply the lo ph as fast as we can - (32 drops) - we dont need a lot of acid just that super low ph to create the reaction -“ heat”

( To be completely transparent here- I apply another round of acid after the hi pressure rinse before tri foam because I want an acidic car to apply my ceramics and graphene- it really makes a car pop and dries really good)

This is not a hard time of year to get good clear glass. Windshields are coming in hot and this program sequence works really good! And bugs are gone!

You are in Nebraska and I know guys out there like hf. I m in Ohio and would never touch that stuff.

Ask - kentadel - on this forum
He is close to you and been playing with some of the same things I m using.

 

[Rickdm1722]

Thank you for the input.

 

[Greg Pack]

I don't think there's a benefit from the two combining. I know many years ago some people claimed the heat generated when mixing the two together was beneficial. I tried mixing the two and found no measurable amount of heat generated from this.

With rising utilities (water/sewer is 3 cents per gallon here) I'm trying to get my Touchfree washes down to only one high pressure pass. I'd rather allocate the money to stronger chemistry.

My best overall car comes from a strong high followed by a low, then a rinse. The high lifts the road film off the paint, and the low helps neutralize that and helps with the eyebrow. If I do low first it seems paint cleaning suffers. But as you probably know touch less cleaning is highly regional based on soil and driving conditions and there is not a one size fits all for the entire country.

 

[soonermajic]

What yall say makes sense. However, I feel like the vast majority of pwners use Low then Hi.
What say ye?

I was striping cars like crazy, in my Petit. McClean sent a field rep, titrated, volumetrics, mojo, hocus pocus, & BAM
Cars are very clean!

 

[ShinePro]

Coach is probably right. Most start with lo first. Hell, even the website of the company I buy from says too.

You look up a lo ph pre soak on the Chemquest web site it says
“ use as the first step in a 2 step wash process”.

Change is slow- but after 2 yrs of complaining my rep finally got them to take that off the label on the jugs.

Scientist/chemists are a funny bunch
They think:
- Lo ph first hi second
- electric cars will save the planet
- Joe is fit to be president

lol

 

[Greg Pack]

What yall say makes sense. However, I feel like the vast majority of pwners use Low then Hi.
What say ye?

I was striping cars like crazy, in my Petit. McClean sent a field rep, titrated, volumetrics, mojo, hocus pocus, & BAM
Cars are very clean!

If a chemical has the power to stripe it has the power to clean. If a car is striping you've either got 1)inconsistent product application 2)clogged HP nozzle(s) or 3) the machine is moving too fast. Your chemical rep likely adjusted air injection and thinned out the foam to make a more consistent sheet of product on the car. But it sounds like you're not much of a DIY guy so you need a rep to help you with these details.

Use what works for you. low hi or high low. Many use hi/hi. Your local chemical rep should know what works in his area.

Some operators prioritize windshield eyebrow over paint cleaning. Some areas it seems like that paint cleaning is very easy. For me, cleaning gets easy when we have a dry spell. People up north are dealing with snow melt compounds which should in theory respond best to low pH (if they are mineral based). Just recently I tried a new chemical setup with Quest and they said low hi is the way to go, but I got better results on paint with hi low. My goal is the best overall car but if I have to compromise in some way paint cleaning takes priority.

 

[Rickdm1722]

Coach is probably right. Most start with lo first. Hell, even the website of the company I buy from says too.

You look up a lo ph pre soak on the Chemquest web site it says
“ use as the first step in a 2 step wash process”.

Change is slow- but after 2 yrs of complaining my rep finally got them to take that off the label on the jugs.

Scientist/chemists are a funny bunch
They think:
- Lo ph first hi second
- electric cars will save the planet
- Joe is fit to be president

lol

I get it, im so confused right now. One says Lo/hi, the other says hi/lo, and some say hi/hi.

The only consist thing I hear, is that the lower the ph level before applying wax or ceramic the better it will stick.

Coach is probably right. Most start with lo first. Hell, even the website of the company I buy from says too.

You look up a lo ph pre soak on the Chemquest web site it says
“ use as the first step in a 2 step wash process”.

Change is slow- but after 2 yrs of complaining my rep finally got them to take that off the label on the jugs.

Scientist/chemists are a funny bunch
They think:
- Lo ph first hi second
- electric cars will save the planet
- Joe is fit to be president

lol

I get it, I'm so confused at the moment trying to upgrade my wash packages. Some say lo/hi, some say hi/lo, and some say hi/hi.

I just have to keep on testing and see what work for me.

 

[Eric H]

Which process is giving you the best cleaning? You are correct in that you want the PH of the car to be low. You can achieve this by using a Lo PH triple foam conditioner then applying your ceramic, hot wax curtain, sealer wax, and drying agent.
I’d concentrate on the cleaning portion of the wash and then the second part of the wash as shine, protect and dry. You won’t have success in the shine, protect, dry portion if you aren’t starting with a clean surface.

 

[Rickdm1722]

If a chemical has the power to stripe it has the power to clean. If a car is striping you've either got 1)inconsistent product application 2)clogged HP nozzle(s) or 3) the machine is moving too fast. Your chemical rep likely adjusted air injection and thinned out the foam to make a more consistent sheet of product on the car. But it sounds like you're not much of a DIY guy so you need a rep to help you with these details.

Use what works for you. low hi or high low. Many use hi/hi. Your local chemical rep should know what works in his area.

Some operators prioritize windshield eyebrow over paint cleaning. Some areas it seems like that paint cleaning is very easy. For me, cleaning gets easy when we have a dry spell. People up north are dealing with snow melt compounds which should in theory respond best to low pH (if they are mineral based). Just recently I tried a new chemical setup with Quest and they said low hi is the way to go, but I got better results on paint with hi low. My goal is the best overall car but if I have to compromise in some way paint cleaning takes priority.

Yeah, my goal when upgrading my wash packages wash getting rid of window mask. but, know i'm having second thoughts, and think i'm try and get the

Which process is giving you the best cleaning? You are correct in that you want the PH of the car to be low. You can achieve this by using a Lo PH triple foam conditioner then applying your ceramic, hot wax curtain, sealer wax, and drying agent.
I’d concentrate on the cleaning portion of the wash and then the second part of the wash as shine, protect and dry. You won’t have success in the shine, protect, dry portion if you aren’t starting with a clean surface.

I was trying to do it all at once, but know backed up to focusing on the presoaks first, then I will move on the later end of the wash, waxes, grapene, etc.

 

[washnshine]

I know another touchfree IBA operator who does all of his tweaking and adjusting of presoaks with a few tank sprayers in a self serve bay. He mixes up his dilution for both the hi and lo pH and then experiments on different parts of his car with the sequence, dwell , etc. before he rinses it off. It’s a lot easier than switching things around in the actual IBA setup. Maybe it’s worth a try in a few different cars before you commit in the IBA.

 

[AnalyticWash]

Which process is giving you the best cleaning? You are correct in that you want the PH of the car to be low. You can achieve this by using a Lo PH triple foam conditioner then applying your ceramic, hot wax curtain, sealer wax, and drying agent.
I’d concentrate on the cleaning portion of the wash and then the second part of the wash as shine, protect and dry. You won’t have success in the shine, protect, dry portion if you aren’t starting with a clean surface.

I did 6 months of testing with multiple manufacturers and I call BS on PH needing to be low before wax. Cars always came out the exact same (from a wax perspective) no matter if it was finished high or low on the cleaning side. Perhaps this was a thing in the 90s but imo modern drying agents don't seem to care.

Concerning low/hi hi/low. We did actual measurements of PH on the surface of the car before/during/after applying presoaks and I can confirm it takes a lot of low/hi to cut through the other to get a real benefit. For example, if my low produced a PH of 3 at 50mls I would need roughly 100-120mls of hi to reach 12+PH if I applied that over the low.

Obviously this amount will vary depending on the manufacturer. I would definitely be measuring surface PH to help identify what is actually happening at the surface of the car.

 

[ShinePro]

We spent nearly an hour
On the phone this morning
Clarifying what all has been put on here.
Lots of good stuff.

 

[ShinePro]

I did 6 months of testing with multiple manufacturers and I call BS on PH needing to be low before wax. Cars always came out the exact same (from a wax perspective) no matter if it was finished high or low on the cleaning side. Perhaps this was a thing in the 90s but imo modern drying agents don't seem to care.

Concerning low/hi hi/low. We did actual measurements of PH on the surface of the car before/during/after applying presoaks and I can confirm it takes a lot of low/hi to cut through the other to get a real benefit. For example, if my low produced a PH of 3 at 50mls I would need roughly 100-120mls of hi to reach 12+PH if I applied that over the low.

Obviously this amount will vary depending on the manufacturer. I would definitely be measuring surface PH to help identify what is actually happening at the surface of the car.

I was not talking wax!
I agree- an acidic car has no benefit to wax.

But if you are going ceramic and putting wax in the museum of car washing.
Then an acidic car really helps.

Your second paragraph is spot on.
Thats why we apply alkaline first.
It takes a lot less mls of a strong acid and costs less to overcome first application.

 

[washnshine]

Nice to see this thread and all the concern, research and discussion that operators on this forum go through to give their customers the best. This truly is a forum for professional car wash operators.

 

[Greg Pack]

Rickdm don't mean to confuse you. Try what your rep recommends, just realize that it is not the Bible.