Spot Free Pump Short Cycling during Foam Brush

[Bubbles Galore]

I am not sure how long this has been going on, but I just noticed it this morning while I was up here at the wash. When a customer in bay 3 was using the foam brush, my distribution pump was running in roughly 15 second cycles shutting off for 1 or 2 seconds and then firing back up for another 15 seconds. This lasted the entire time the foam brush was being used and then stopped when the customer switched to rinse. So far as I could tell, there wasn't any voltage going to any of the bay solenoids so it appears as though it was just deadheading against the solenoid band. I just checked 2 of the other bays and everything was operating fine

Any ideas where I should start troubleshooting?

 

[robtl]

I would try the rotary switch if you are using one

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Maybe a short between the foam brush and spot free? But wouldn't that cause the spot free solenoid to energize?

 

[MEP001]

Maybe a short between the foam brush and spot free? But wouldn't that cause the spot free solenoid to energize?

Yeah, it would.

Someone had a similar problem recently, and I suggested moving that bay's wires to a spare input on the RO motor controller. He never reported back.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

So you're saying to disconnect the wires from the bay controller to the spot free controller and see if that is how I can isolate the problem to some type of short in the rotary switch?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Ok...I did a little more troubleshooting, but I am still not sure what to do...

- I tested the spot free and it was working fine. 24 v at the controller and all is well...
- I left the input wires connected to the spot free controller and turned on the foam brush...voltage read about 1.6 v...not much...but the spot free pump was running...
- I disconnected the input wires from the spot free controller and the spot free pump did not turn on when the foam brush was selected...would that mean that I am shorted out somewhere at the rotary switch? Meterbox? Bay Controller?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

MEP - I read that post you were referencing and I am also running that same controller that Ric is using...the GS-16D...

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Any ideas?

When I remove the common from the spot free controller, the pump turns off...only the common though...thoughts?

 

[MEP001]

I would start by making sure your 24V hot and commons on all bays are in phase. Connect your volt meter to bay 1 24V hot and bay 2 24V hot, and there should be no voltage; same with the common. You should get the same reading on all bays as you move down the pump stands.

It could also be the "logic controller" in the pumpstand.

Do you have an extra set of inputs on the pump controller you can try?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

That is going to be my next move is to switch to a different set of inputs on the controller and see where that leads me.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Moved the input lines from the bay controller to an open spot on the spot free controller with the same results...

Can I just jumper one of the commons from a different bay on the spot free controller? Will that work?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can band-aid this thing? I have a couple days of sun coming and I really don't want to have this bay down...I'm open to any suggestions...I will do a little dance if it will help!

 

[Bill Manke]

do you have a rotary switch out in the bay? If so it sounds like it is making the connection out there. Try a new switch our swap from another bay and see what happens.

 

[car washing systems inc]

What type of door is it rotary switch or push button?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

It is an Etowah Valley Door and it is a 10 button rotary. The door is just about 6 months old and has worked fine up until this point...sadly, I don't have any spare rotary switches on hand...only when the sun is shining...

 

[Bill Manke]

How about all the connections to the rotary switch all the way back to your equipment room. check to see if you have any stray wires making a connection. Such as when you make your connections and twist the wires to put in connectors. Make sure now loose stands are touching the wrong connector.

 

[MEP001]

How about all the connections to the rotary switch all the way back to your equipment room.

It's not the switch or the wiring anywhere between the bay and the room, otherwise the solenoid would open too. It's not a stray connection making contact otherwise two bays would run when one is called for.

Can I just jumper one of the commons from a different bay on the spot free controller? Will that work?

If all your commons from the bays are interconnected somewhere, then that may work. It's worth a try, shouldn't take long to find out.

Did you ever check the phases of the voltage for all the bays?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

It's not the switch or the wiring anywhere between the bay and the room, otherwise the solenoid would open too.

I was hoping it was that, but you are correct, there is zero voltage going to any of the solenoids when the foam brush is being used and the distribution pump is running.

If all your commons from the bays are interconnected somewhere, then that may work. It's worth a try, shouldn't take long to find out.

I tried this and it did not work...

Did you ever check the phases of the voltage for all the bays?

The voltage that feeds my bay controller(s) are daisy chained together from a 1.5 VA transformer, so theoretically shouldn't all the phasing equal out? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. For each bay controller the 24v comes into a separate ginsan controller and is distributed out to the terminal strips from there.

I am thoroughly confused seeing as how no matter where I place my input wires from my bay on the GS-16, the problem still persists, yet there isn't any voltage coming from the bay through the input wires. Yet, when I remove the common, the pump turns off...am I missing something?

I have asked Dan at Ginsan to give me a call this morning to see if he is familiar with this type of problem with the GS-16 controller...

 

[Dan kamsickas]

John

Left you a voicemail.

One thing you can check: Measure across different inputs, for example the hot of 1 to the common of 2. If you read 24v anywhere on the 16D this way you are getting feedback from a short somewhere. It could be causing enough leakage current to trigger the input of the 16D but not enough to open the solenoid. I saw this once when someone did a jackleg job of installing a coin vac system. I suppose it could possible be caused by a bad rotary switch not totally breaking contact when it is turned.

 

[MEP001]

The voltage that feeds my bay controller(s) are daisy chained together from a 1.5 VA transformer, so theoretically shouldn't all the phasing equal out?

It's supposed to, but I've seen all sorts of weird problems occur if the 24V transformers aren't in phase. It's easy to check and correct, and seems like a probable culprit since it's happening on only one bay that has had something changed.

Try just swapping the hot and common to the door.