Touchless to Friction

[cleaning up mud]

Who has changed their IBA from Touchless to Friction? Did your washes increase, stay about the same, decline?
Has your maintenance gone up?

thanks

 

[Greg Pack]

I replaced a water wizard 2.0 with a fusion X automatic, which is a combo unit. Slowly but surely, the fusion X has caught on. The fusion X is the most complex piece of car wash equipment I have ever owned. It's like you took a tunnel full of equipment and controls, and crammed it all onto one gigantic gantry. but after the learning curve flattened it's been OK as far as relaibility. I will definitely continue to look at cloth washes in any future reloads.

Yes, I find occasional parts in the bay, but very,very few calls.

Having said that, there are still customers that insist on touch free.

 

[mac]

I replaced a touchless Powerrain with an Istobal M22 friction unit. The first year the customer's volume doubled, and tripled the following year. This is without any advertising. If you want send me a message and I'll give you his phone number here in FL.

 

[Greg Pack]

I've said this before but I think the relative success of a cloth over friction depends on your customers and how effective your touch free process is. We all know some operators do a better job with touch free chemicals than others. If they don't offer a decent touch free then customers will gravitate towards soft cloth. For my customers I recommend the cloth wash if you wash less than every two weeks. Even then, if they use the touch free exclusively they may need to hand wash or run through a cloth wash seasonally to keep a car looking really good.

At the one site I have the fusion X, I also have a water wizard 2.0. Some days I will go in and there is a line for touch free only machine. Some days there is a line for the fusion X and no one waiting for the touch free. However, my fusion X is a combination unit and I offer two cloth and two touch free washes. If you look at overall site revenue, the touch washes free wins out.

If I had a single automatic site, local market conditions would likely heavily influence my selection. If there is a express tunnel in the market and two friction IBAs at gas stations down the street, I'm gonna go touchless or combination.

 

[rph9168]

Frequent washers will have no problem with cleaning at a touch free wash if it is set up right. Someone washing once a month or less will probably not be satisfied with any touch free wash. The problem with most combo washes is that most customers view it as a friction wash when they look at it and generally a combo touch free wash cannot clean like a touch free only due to the pressure and chemical coverage of most combo washes. Distributors are big fans of combo washes because they cost more and tend to require more service than either a touch free or friction wash. They love to pitch them to new operators on the premise that you have the best of both worlds.

I used to be involved in a seminar with several other presenters. I remember an attendee questioning a famous chemist in the group. He asked them what was the best way to remove road film. His answer - friction. Then the questioner asked what road film was. The chemistry's answer - what is left on the car after a touch free wash.

 

[mrfixit]

A lot has to do with the quality of the touch free and the customers perception in your area. Some are still scared of cloth washers, depends where you live. Some areas may have more issues with really gritty or muddy vehicles, then I think cloth or foam can be a problem.

Touch free has benefits for sure, one being you can get a more even clean, where some friction washes may miss some spots. But getting road film off is the biggest challenge and friction does it... As long as it's not too much friction... As a touchless owner, I fear sand on the material scratching around. Sand is nearly as hard as diamond and scratches even gorilla glass. So in my rural community with gravel roads and such I would have to belive there was no way for anything to stay on the cloth/ foam... I'm not there yet... They say it's not a problem, but..

 

[washnshine]

Yes - if you go after a sandy/gritty car directly with friction, you will cause paint marring. However, many new friction models offer high pressure pre-wash functions that remove that layer of grit. These are not combo touch/touchfree units, just a hp pump and manifold that is incorporated in a friction wash. The pdq pro touch icon can be purchased with the same wheel/rocker hp spray that activates when you drive in, as their laser wash machines use. They also have machine mounted hp manifolds. This eliminates any potential problems that friction can cause if the surface has grit or sand on it.

I would not want a combo unit that offers the choice of friction or touch free - for the reasons mentioned above. But if you can get a high pressure pre rinse on a car, followed by a friction wash, you will be able to offer a very safe and high quality wash.

 

[cellardale@aol.com]

My two cents is touchless has everyone interested while brushes have some reluctance. I upgraded from a Laser to a mini tunnel. (yes different concept) but the overriding response is customers are still afraid "brushes ruin the paint". It has taken a lot of free washes and information to get the numbers up. Love the touchless model but wanted to process more cars on those "busy days".

 

[aca carwash 2]

What type of express do you have and how are the sales/profit compared to touchless? Is it worth it with the extrs labor costs? Whats your traffic count?

 

[cellardale@aol.com]

I have a sony's mini tunnel with a 60 foot rear push conveyor. I put it in the same bay that I had a worn out Laser wash. It is an unmanned tunnel which gives a few glitches but I am totally happy with the concept. No additional labor costs and a 14000 cpd traffic count. Most days it does 10 to 20% more cars than the Razor touchless but it has taken a few months to get that way. Several people either assume it works the same as the razor or are too afraid of the concept or brushes.

 

[aca carwash 2]

Cellar, how many cow? If you had to man the tunnel would it be profitable.if you had to do it over again would you do an Express or do a friction or touch free

 

[aca carwash 2]

I meant cars per week not cow

 

[cellardale@aol.com]

I average about 400 cars per week in the touchless and about 500 per week in the mini tunnel. If I had to man it, I don't think it would be profitable. As I have it configured now, it is open 24/7. I don't think there is enough volume to pay an attendant. It would definitely help with people wanting to try it for the first time though. There are a number of people who have never used a conveyor system and they don't load properly.

We had a winter with no snow and very little ice, so Im not sure of its capability. The first winter, (the tunnel was only a few months old), it had a daily best of 248 cars where as the touchless had a daily best of 137. So as far as being able to handle the load, it was the right call. As far as initial investment, I could have bought 4 touchless machines for what I paid for that. But then again, it is never down like the automatic machines can be. Almost all repairs now can be done with the machine still open.

If I had a choice, at this point I would have replaced the old touchless with another Washworld Razor touchless.

 

[rph9168]

I think you have been fairly lucky to not have to attend a mini tunnel. Do you have anything like a large mirror above the entrance to the conveyor to help people self load? As far as manning the tunnel you would probably increase your revenue with the right person. I have talked to several operators that feel the person attending the tunnel can pay for themselves plus additional revenue with upselling and eliminate any possible problems with loading. I would think that at least having someone attend the wash during busy times like weekends would be worth it but the only way to find out would be to try it.

 

[cellardale@aol.com]

we do have a large mirror to the left of the entrance for positioning the drivers front wheel. Most of our problems are people paying and then either not reading, hearing or following the instructions and drive straight thru without waiting on the conveyor rollers.

We have discussed an attendant but at this time do not feel they will pay for theirselves. We are at the wash everyday and busy weekends and are constantly talking to people and showing them how it works with free washes. Many times they will hear us talk but not comprehend.

 

[DiamondWash]

I was at a mini tunnel here in town no competition to me that too is open 24/7 the customer in front of me was having issues getting onto the conveyor so as my civic duty I got out of my vehicle to properly guide "her" on to the conveyor she then asked me "do you work here?" I replied "No but I should" laughed and walked back to my vehicle. Why doesn't Sonny's, Ryko, MacNeil, PECO have the Belt style conveyor like Tommy's Car Wash systems are they that expensive?

 

[robert roman]

Operators change wash process for different reasons.

For example, a convenience store and gas chain may switch due to competitive pressure from exterior express or to reduce operating expenses to improve profitability.

Friction uses less chemical, energy and water than touchless.

Some operators will target a different market segment by adding a second in-bay (friction) and retain touch-less unit.

Since there may be no material difference in hourly capacity between touch-less and friction in-bay, revenue generation is more important than volume.

For example, friction in-bay can produce hand-finished qualities (i.e. foam brushes, polish/wax) and a cleaner car leads to a drier car.

This value-added supports higher price points and average per car revenue.

Higher average sales minus lower operating expense equal greater profit.

Mini-tunnel has more requirements than in-bay. Principal reason is cost, at least $250K.

For example, if $125K in-bay needs 12,000 cars per year (38 a day) to make adequate return, mini-tunnel needs 24,000 cars (77 a day).

36,000 cars a year would be a sweet spot. However, this requires labor.

So, I like to see traffic of at least 20,000 (annual average daily traffic).

 

[cellardale@aol.com]

When I looked at them, I think the question was more about cars being out of line more than the cost of the belt. I talked with several other operators and heard horror stories about people stepping on the wider belt, etc. plus cars coming in at an angle, staying at an angle and getting a terrible wash.

 

[washnshine]

When I looked at them, I think the question was more about cars being out of line more than the cost of the belt. I talked with several other operators and heard horror stories about people stepping on the wider belt, etc. plus cars coming in at an angle, staying at an angle and getting a terrible wash.

The belt also limits your wheel wash and tire shine options since they are not rolling through the tunnel.

 

[rph9168]

Belts cost almost three times what a traditional conveyor does. They also require more maintenance. Hard to justify the cost considering some of the issues that have already been brought up.