Water in pumps of Mark VII autos

[mac]

So just out of curiosity, is anyone else besides me seeing water get into the high pressure pumps on these? My company does maintenance on some of these, and we follow the factory recommended maintenance very closely. When a little while back, Mark VII changed from the Arimitsu back to the Cat pump, we saw water getting into the crankcase in the first 30 days. We do a PM at these and are there twice a month. I've seen this on three machines now, and that's every one we deal with. So, my questions are: 1. anyone else seen this? 2. What have you done to correct this? 3. Does anyone have a factory fix for this? 4. What has worked to fix this? 5. Has anyone moved the pumps indoors to fix this? Any info greatly appreciated. If I am screwing something up, I would really like to know what that is.

 

[phred113]

I.B. usually contributes regarding Mark VII Autos. You may want to PM him. There was also a Tom fella from Mark VII that usually came on to defend them a few years ago.

It was to be expected that the on gantry design also affected the Cat pumps, too. According to a former Mark VII employee, the Arimitsu pumps out lasted any pump they have ever tested - including Cat - but the constant rain shower was too much. It was easier to blame a little known pump brand than admit a design flaw. The Cat pump has special epoxy paint, liquid gasket, and other water excluding features not found standard on any other model and the pumps still get water into them. The Cat warranty specifically excludes coverage for water in the oil, so Mark VII can't even get warranty.
I think I.B. has talked about a plastic cover, or helmet, that some lucky individuals were able to receive if they really complained. I know Arimitsu has helped all the owners of equipment that have contacted them. You may want to talk to them, too.

 

[Wally]

Mac you always seem to be on top of everything but have you thought about it being condensation building up inside the pump.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

When Mark VII designed the GT series machines Cat did not have a pump to meet their requirements. Arimitsu had a pump with the specs they were looking for so they went with the 709 on the GT machines. As with most pumps, it was not made to be run it a constant wet environment. They had about a 5% "under warranty" failure rate due to water in the crankcase. In the meantime, Cat developed a pump for this application and Mark VII used the "water in crankcase" issue as the reason to drop Arimitsu.

Since the pumps only run 30 seconds or so at a time, I doubt that they generate enough heat for any condensation.

Arimitsu has a seal to put between the head and crankcase to help this issue and Mark VII has a plastic cover.

The Arimitsu people are great to deal with and are always eager to help. I have never seen anyone from Cat or General contribute to this forum. I currently am running 12 Arimitsu in my SS bays and have 6 on my Mark VII autos. I won't ever buy another brand if I can put on an Arimitsu.

BTW, Tom Frietsche is no longer with Mark VII.

 

[mac]

Thanks for the replys. As to the condensation issue, there is undoubtly some of that going on. Since the crankcases are ventilated, moist air gets in during the day, and condenses at night when it cools down. You will only get small ammounts of water this way. What I've seen is two week old Cat pumps with a LOT of water in the oil. The first time I asked Mark VII about it, the tech actually said the solution was to use Cat oil. Now imagine finding oil in your auto crankcase, and then have a tech say to just use good oil. The reason for this post was to see if others are seeing this issue, and what fixes have been done. In theory, it would not be a major modification to move the pumps indoors, but it would still cost a bunch. Right now the customer that I have has three of these machines and mark VII, the distributor(Waltek), or Cat pump will answer their calls. Ain't life grand.

 

[phred113]

It appears that Mark VII changed from a pump supplier that worked with customers to the one everyone knows does not. I guess that is good way of cutting down on warranty claims; customers know already not to ever ask for one from Cat.

 

[MEP001]

Try putting a tube in the cap on the pump and run the end as high and far away from any water spray as possible. Trucks have a similar tube in the axle vent to prevent water from entering when they are fording. If a Cat pump gets wet directly on top, the cold makes the air in the crankcase contract and any water on the cap is literally sucked into the crankcase.

The tech is correct about using Cat oil because it will absorb water and maintain lubrication, whereas non-detergent motor oil cannot.

 

[Gabriel]

Facts are that any automatic that puts its electronic connections, wheels, bearings, pumps, lines, clips, clamps, plastic, metal, computer, valves or anything else that can be placed in the harsh environment of car wash chemicals and water under pressure are going to have about the same problems. What if your cars, tractors, equipment and other valuable belongings were stuck out in that same environment. I'm thinking that is why they made garages, barns, and storage buildings to protect equipment from far less damaging daily exposure. Something to think about!

 

[mr-gte]

What is your incoming water pressure to the Pump?Does the inlet water psi ever exceed 80 psi at any time?

 

[I.B. Washincars]

The pumps are gravity fed.

 

[Doug P.]

I bought a new GT500 four years ago and both of the original Armitsu pumps failed within 18 months and one of the replacement Armitsus failed last year. I now have Cats on both sides of the machines. I just pulled a ten year old Mark7 out of service and I never touched the Cat pump on the machine for seals or any other problem. Changed the oil every couple of years and that was it. I have some 623 cats at my first car wash that are still in service after 26 years. With that being said I went through the washout problem with the 310's like everyone else and almost switched to Armitsus four years ago and I am confident they are a good pump. I went with the Cat 5cp instead and out of 6 pumps I bought 4 years ago I have only worked on one(seals). I have bought several more since then and they have been trouble free also.

 

[Tom Frietsche]

Pat,
After a sabbatical, I?m happily back at Mark VII. Our CAT pump warranty is 5 years. Within that 5 year period we have a 3% pump failure rate. Mark VII offers pump covers (p/n 3500-0030, $29.99 list price) for additional peace of mind. The reason that the tech support staff said to use CAT oil is that we have found there really is a difference. CAT oil is hydrophilic, standard oil is hydrophobic. Meaning that, CAT oil will combine with water without significantly separating. As such, if water enters the crankcase, the bearings, journals, crank, etc. are still protected. As a Mark VII employee I may be biased. However, having worked with our customers for years I can assure you that our warranty processes and policies are liberal and fair.
I don?t want this to sound like a commercial so please contact me if you would like additional information.
Thank you,
Thomas Frietsche
Data Analyst
Mark VII Equipment

 

[mac]

Tom, thanks for the information, and welcome back. The question that I have , and many others , is does the 5 year warranty cover pump failure from water in the oil? I have two machines that had the Cat pumps put in by the factory distributor, and have had oil/water issues from day one. We have been changing the oil, with the Cat oil, and now have bearing failure. Was this issue addressed by Mark VII? Were service bulletins sent out to customers to recommend the covers? If the factory did address this, yet the distributor didn't follow up, how does this affect the poor operator? Any info will be greatly appreciated. This is an opportunity for MarkVII/Wesumat to really shine.

 

[Tom Frietsche]

Our friendly CAT representative explained to me that water in the crankcase, causing lubrication failure and subsequent damage is usually not covered if the water entered due to seal failure. An important piece of pump maintenance is to ensure the LP seal is in good shape during an oil change. To the best of my knowledge, Mark VII published a Technical Bulletin to our Distributors on May 20, 2005 describing mitigating water problems. The pump cover was originally designed for Arimitsu pumps which appeared much less tolerant to water spray. Hope this helps.

 

[mac]

Hello Tom. Thanks for the information, however the main question I asked is still not answered. I have a customer that had a factory distributor install the Cat pumps. We saw water in them in the first 30 days. Changed the oil with Cat oil numerous times. Still water in the pumps. The distributor has been notified numerous times. Nada results. Simply no response. At this point the bearings are ready to seize and trash the pump. My question: How does this customer get any relief? What happens if, as in this case, the distributor is simply incompetent? Does that relieve Mark VII from all liability? Please respond soon, as the pumps are ready to blow. If you are coming to FL for the show, I'll be happy to show you these.

 

[Doug P.]

Tom,
I have three GT500's in service with Cat pumps. Do I need covers on my pumps or was this just for the Armitsus.

Doug P.

 

[Tom Frietsche]

Doug P.,
The covers were designed for the Arimitsu and we haven?t had any significant after-market demand for them after switching to the CAT pump.
Mac,
Please email me if you have observations regarding one of our distributors. I?ll forward them to the proper people.
Thanks,
Tom

 

[phred113]

I guess the question remains: Does Mark VII warranty pumps with water in the oil? I think this is a very important question to answer. The presumption is that damage as result of oil in the crankcase is covered.

Mac has asked about a specific instance that may or may not be unique. I have been told by Mark VII distributors it is not. In your opinion, does this type of issue fall in the category of lack of maintenance by customer/distributor or somewhere else?

You have cited a 3% failure rate. What qualifies (causes) for a failure?
Mac seems to be doing his part by servicing this operator, so what can you do to help him and others in a similar pickle?

I am not trying to pick on Mark VII or you. You are great for coming on here and helping. This has been an issue for an otherwise innovative, quality machine and it would be nice for forum members to get an answer. Who knows, your answer may sway some folks to Mark VII. I see the machine at the show and when I ask people about it, they talk about wet pumps and frequent oil service to maintain warranty standing.

 

[Tom Frietsche]

Phred,
Each pump is individually evaluated by CAT for warranty status. There have been pumps with water in the crankcase that have been replaced, others denied. Each case is different. A failure is anytime a pump can not accomplish the function for which it was designed within the design parameters.
Thanks,
Tom

 

[phred113]

So even the specially designed Cat pumps get water in them? These Cat pumps have liquid gasket and other special features to exclude water and they still get water in the crankcase. Hmmmm. This looks definitely like a pump problem.