wwf wand injection system questions

[wash4me]

I have now installed a plc controlled system to inject the windshield washer fluid into the wands to avoid the necessity to weep. There's a line connected to a check valve above each bay. I have it set for 60 seconds of air (this is how long it takes to stop spraying mist) then 5 seconds of wwf then 5 more seconds of air. The last 5 seconds of air seems to blow out most of the wwf. I was pretty proud of the system and the install but then I forgot to knock on wood I guess. All bays froze. No damage but no success either. I was considering changing it to 60 seconds of air, 3 seconds of wwf 5 seconds of air then 5 seconds of wwf then 5 seconds of air. Thoughts?

 

[2Biz]

A few things come to mind. Do you only have one line going to each bay for WWF and air or do you have one for air and one for WWF tee’d above the bay? Your post indicates you have only one line going out to the bay. If so, this could be an issue. The automated WWF and air purge system on all my LP functions have air and WWF tee’d above the bay. I originally only had one line to each bay and it wasn’t effective at all. I had to add the additional line and tee both above the bay. If you only have one line, it may be a timing issue. WWF may not be getting to the bay.

Recently I installed a manual blowdown/WWF injection system on my HP hoses. The only difference is mine is manual and uses the weep lines connected in the Er and yours is automated and is tee’d in above the bay. Same principal. I don’t know if this is your issue, but 90% of the time when I put a bay back in service after being winterized for a day or two or more; the tip will plug with something that breaks loose in the hose/fittings. It has done it in every bay, so it’s not isolated to a single bay. I’m thinking the in-rush of water is breaking stuff lose in the cold stiff hose?
After startup, I don’t have clogging tip issues. Or any yet this witner.

I was planning on doing the same thing as you and automate the process with a plc, but this issue has me giving up on the idea. I am more than happy with the manual system. At least I am there on startup to unplug a nozzle when it happens.

Lastly, do you have SFR? CantBreak80 posted a few times about how a SFR solenoid manifold could leak by when another bay is using SFR. This is something else that can ruin your day.

Keep us posted....I really like the idea, but there seems to be obstacles to over come!

 

[wash4me]

I have 2-1/4 inch poly lines (air and wwf) both checked above the bay. I can see the wwf blowing out on that second air cycle of 5 seconds. We had one tip plug while we were testing the system. I assume it's just rust that was always wet breaking free once it gets wet then dry. I am considering a couple things. The rust has to be coming from the hydraulic hose crimp on fittings so is there an alternate fitting material that won't rust? Another thought is they sell a filter for the turbo nozzles that I could install either at the wand or at the top of the bay hose that would catch most of that rust. (You would still have the bay hose fittings that could flake off though those hose are usually much newer than the rest of the system.)

 

[2Biz]

You can buy SS crimp fittings for your HP hoses, but it'll cost ya an arm and a leg! About $32.00 each...

http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Stainless_Steel_Male_Pipe_NPTF_p/ss-mp.htm

I've never heard of a HP filter before, so can't help out there.

Have you tried increasing the WF cycle and maybe increasing the final air cycle to like 15-20 seconds? You didn't say, do you have SFR? Even though I don't have an automated blow-down system, I still added ball valves to the kip manifold for SFR so I can keep a bay or two open if I choose. Something to think about...

 

[wash4me]

Thanks, I don't have time to try anything else for now so the weep is back on. I will keep you posted.

 

[area123]

2biz, I had the same problem with tip clogging after some freezing in the high pressure lines. After everything thawed we had a bad bay hose and removed it. I saw the same hard black crud on the inside of the old hose fitting. It was rust/ corroded metal from the fitting. It was pretty thick inside the hoses but after flushing out the lines it didn't come back. Maybe it was the freezing that causes it to break lose.

So how often do the hoses need replaced due to these fitting corroding? Do all the internal high pressure hoses in the trough have similar corrosion? Im guessing they do. I wonder if the salt from water softeners makes the corrosion worse.

 

[MEP001]

I've never had issues with rust clogging the tips under normal use - it does rust but it must flake off in small enough pieces that it passes through. Water freezing in the hose breaks the rust off in bigger chunks.

 

[Randy]

2biz, I had the same problem with tip clogging after some freezing in the high pressure lines. After everything thawed we had a bad bay hose and removed it. I saw the same hard black crud on the inside of the old hose fitting. It was rust/ corroded metal from the fitting. It was pretty thick inside the hoses but after flushing out the lines it didn't come back. Maybe it was the freezing that causes it to break lose.

When a hose freezes it expends. This expansion breaks loose any build up that may be inside the hose, rust, soap scum etc. Whenever I shut down the car wash or have a frozen hose I always remove the gun before I turn the water back on and then flush out the hose for a few minutes before reinstalling the gun. You’d be surprised at how much debris there is in the hose. When I replace a broken hose or fix a hose I always remove the gun and give the hose a flush before putting into service.

 

[2Biz]

That's why I have reservations whether an automated blowdown wwf injection system will work on a HP hose. I know it won't work for me since I have this issue with manual blowdown/wwf injection. I know some are getting away with it, but maybe they have SS tubing out to the bays and all SS fittings????

I agree with Randy, there is all kinds of crud in the hoses. It doesn't break loose under normal operating conditions or when its always filled with water. The freezing of the hose has to have something to do with it. I'll stick with the manual blowdown system for now.

 

[wash4me]

This is the filter I was talking about. For what weep costs me if that doesn't work I could install stainless steel ends or stainless tubing and It would all be paid for in a year or two. It seems like there would be a corrrosion resistant material that could be applied to the interior of the fittings so they wouldn't rust.

http://www.pressureparts.com/342040

 

[MEP001]

The fittings are already coated with something corrosion resistant, it just doesn't last very long.

 

[area123]

The damaged hose I removed was probably 10 years old I'm guessing. It was the bay hose connected to the handle. The fittings inside looked pretty corroded and the material stuck in the tip was definitely metallic & corroded. but after flushing the hoses that did freeze, nothing else has come out to plug the tip. I've been removing the tip about daily to double check no more crud in there. So I agree with everyone it is the freezing that must cause most of the bigger chunks to break lose.

The problem with the high pressure filter is that it would clog very quickly given the amount of crud that I flushed from our previously frozen hoses. now if you had the automated system to flush, you wouldn't ever have anything freeze, so you might not get nearly as much crud and the filters might work fine. The filter size would need to be such that it would only capture particles slightly larger than your tip size.

 

[Robert2181]

It can also build up from your water,soap and rinse tanks. we have also seen it from the city supply. The wands themselves corrode.

 

[2Biz]

Robert, With such a cold winter, did you have any issues with freeze-ups using your RV Anti Freeze blow-down on HP? Any Clogged tips causing freeze-ups?

 

[Robert2181]

We had 3. 2 were from the wand not all the way in the holder. And 1 from a wand being used as a ice chisel.