zero pressure regulator - set-up tips, any good?

[mrfixit]

Years ago I had the idea to move from our float tank/flojet/ pressure injection into opposite feed inlet on a hypro pump. For our hp soap and wax... Hopeing to eliminate some equipment & problems by direct injecting with the zero pressure..

One reason is we experience a high pressure drop, till we add more softeners, when the hi-impact auto runs. Line pressure drops to about 35 from 85! So the flojet head pressure at 85 starts pumping over city pressure increasing the chemical usage when auto is running all day.

So I finally replumbed one bay up yesterday to try it.. Its working.. But the bypass hose off the regulator is collapsing from the vaccum and causing a drop in psi when cycling the trigger. It runs at 1300psi and trigger cycles cause it to drop to 800 for a second. Like its starving, with a little rattle.

For one that particular pump has a 150psi bypass hose that is flimsy compared to the 250 hoses on the others, this could be the whole problem... I also had a problem with regulator but rebuilt and it was working fine with the old set-up..

The bypass was on the city water inlet side T'd in. I moved it to the opposite side when I replumbed. Not sure if I just need to re-t to the city side or if it just doesn't work this way with zero reg.

Another thing I am seeing that chemical change over its taking about 45 seconds from soap to rinse.. Not sure if its normal or if I just need to rebuild the used kips valve now with the added vaccum on it instead of pressure.

Any knowledge would be appreciated..

With the flojets inherent intermittent problems I'm hoping this will be more reliable with less parts to fail.??

 

[mrfixit]

Here's photos of the original set up and the modified temporary set-up to see how it works.. The nice thing is its bypassing the float tank and flow jet.. Just have to see how its going to work out...

 

[MEP001]

Run the bypass hose from the high-pressure regulator to the inlet of the zero-pressure regulator. It won't hurt anything for the bypass hose to collapse, but you'll have more even flow to the pump. If you listen to it now, you'll probably hear the pump chatter every time someone pulls or releases the trigger - that's cavitation while the zero-pressure regulator adjusts for the change in flow, and it will destroy the manifold. Plumbing the bypass to the inlet will have the flow through it always the same.

 

[mrfixit]

Yeah chatter, otherwise it seems to run a little smoother in general with the regulator installed..

I did change the bypass hose to the 250psi but no change as you know.. Too much vaccum.. Will have to plumb the bypass over to the inlet. Your saying in front of the regulator completely. Not between reg and pump.. So the zero reg is not effected by the pressure change. OK will do tomorrow.

Does the Chemical take a minute to clear from the injector side or do you think I have a weeping kips.

 

[MEP001]

Yes, in front of the regulator, obviously after your water solenoid.

It takes time for the bay hose to clear, but it shouldn't take a minute. Make sure the Kip solenoids are plumbed the right direction.

 

[mrfixit]

Thanks for the tip MEP

Solinoids were right.. I plumbed the bypass in front of regulator and that solved the chatter problem.. Still takes a little longer to clear soap to rinse than the old way we had it I think.. However it is our furthest bay from the maintenance room, it always took a little longer.

Well I have another bigger problem and I don't know if I want to proceed further with the zeroPR. I thought I read on the manufacturers site that they should have back flow preventers between the main line.. Consequently I noticed my IBA fresh water holding tank got some soap in it on one cycle...

I read one comment in the other thread that these weren't that great... I definitely don't want to take a step back.. I'm gonna run it for today and see what happens.

 

[mrfixit]

I'm using the pr-1000a from dultmier.

I spoke to the mfg and they said it doesn't need a back flow preventer. It has a check ball on the chemical side...

I guess I'll run it and keep an eye out. Anyone else have anything good or bad to say about the fluid controls pr-1000a

 

[MEP001]

It might help to have the pump running a bit faster than needed if it's not a big deal to alter - if there's only a tiny amount going through the high-pressure regulator it will take longer for all the soap to clear from the pump and plumbing. If it really take a full minute to clear, that should be corrected.

 

[mrfixit]

Well you bring up a good point. That bays pressure is turned up higher than the others because of the loss through about 80ft of 3/8 hose. As a result less water flows through the bypass hose. Its up over 1350 to feel like 1250 in the first bay.

Now I also have a longer bypass hose to reach in front of the regulator. Oh geez a big soap recirculation loop, now I see.

I tested the second bay and it was over 30 seconds with the old set up. So it may not be that far off. But if I could lower the time to clear soap on all of them that would be great..

I notice now with the LPR that I can have the bypass turned almost all the way down and it doesn't change the pressure by much.

So you think running a different pully to increase the rpm would help by increasing the pressure. Thus allowing more bypass flow. Not sure if the hypro can do it I will have to check. I don't have any pulleys on hand.

 

[MEP001]

30 seconds is still a long time. My longest bay is 18 seconds, and that's with 100' of 3/8" hose. You might have soap clinging to the inside of the hose and not clearing properly.

 

[mrfixit]

Well I mean its not like your on the soap option. The bulk clears in about that time on bay 2. But, I can continue to detect slight bubbling at the edges of a fresh test spray spot, for an equal amount of time till its completely clear - with no slight tiny bubbling at the edges visable... I may be looking too closely.

I recently lower our soap concentration a little so I don't think its over strong. Maybe its the flow through the bypass hoses even on the original setup. The regulator/ bypass is over 3/4 closed on all of them.

That bay has a 2507 others are 25065. Pump is hypro 2414b-p

Are you also saying there could be a problem with the HP hoses in the attic, I think its always been this way.

On a side note I installed the new clear stream hoses from dultmier, recently; 12ft in bay. I really like them, would be great to run them the full length..

 

[mrfixit]

Well it seems to be working fine, so far.

Another question...

I have a balanced relief valve for the bypass, 3300-84m. It says it is designed to mount "off line". I'm wondering if I can move it to the other side of the pump.. Before the gauge, or after. So I can reduce the amount of bypass hose and residual soap.. What do they mean by off line, I have weep guns, is there something different I should do for pressure control/relief?

 

[MEP001]

Reducing the length of bypass hose will probably help. You can mount that regulator anywhere on the high-pressure side.

 

[Randy]

We’ve found that the longevity of the model 1000A Zero Pressure Regulator isn’t very good. The internal parts are made from pot metal and tend to break, when they break you have no water to the pump. We’ve been using a Generant regulator with a DEMA 203C injector for over 25 years with little or no problems.

 

[MEP001]

The 1000A regulator is all brass construction internally. What usually erodes away is the portion of the insert that holds an o-ring in place, and when that happens it lets full city pressure to the pump. The big issue there is that it will no longer draw soap or wax. It's fairly easy to replace the insert. I've never seen one fail where it prevents flow to the pump.

 

[mrfixit]

Thanks for the info guys. Had me worried a second. This is going to a brand new pump..

Being that I use 100% soft water I hope it will last longer than other reports. Iron deposits are still an issue here though.

 

[mrfixit]

Still paranoid about back flow because of or pressure drop when auto runs, down stream in the same main pipe . The softeners are way undersized and we get a 50psi pressure drop when the auto tank fills; till I plumb in another softener.

I swear soap just came out of the sink tap... Unless there was soap in the basin - and the cup i grabbed quick to catch it... There could have been.. But This is the second time ive noticed it, this would be very unacceptable.

I can't believe its sucking back through a dema 413p closed, maybe while open and pump running but still. Will have to keep eye out if I notice something off again I'll probably have to pull it.

Otherwise its nice not having the float tank or being dependant on air use and a flow jet.

But I still think anything I try to inject upstream of the pump will Need back flow prevention or a double check right?

 

[Randy]

Sounds to me like you’ve got some serious water pressure problems. How big is your incoming water service? What is your water pressure?

 

[mrfixit]

Solid 85psi - 2" main.

The problem are the softeners are only half the size we need. We need a peak flow of 90gpm total. They can only really do 45-50gpm. 27grains hardness and they only hold 10cu of resin so 50gpm is the max. Our high impact auto needs 40-50gpm alone.

As soon as the auto holding tank valve opens the pressure drops to 35 psi from 85psi.

Do you think this could draw back from the regulator. I'm thinking its flowing so fast with softener restriction that it may..

So far I only saw soap in the auto holding tank once and I think once at the sink. Not 100% sure yet.

 

[MEP001]

You could have some other issue, possibly weep from one bay feeding soap into the system. Your water pressure dropping to 35 PSI won't cause any problems, because as long as there's pressure on the system it won't backfeed anything. Your auto pumping from a holding tank also won't cause suction on your bay pumps, and even though you can draw liquid backward through a Dema solenoid it wouldn't get through the soap/wax solenoids AND through the check ball in the zero-pressure regulator.

Check your softener function too - salt getting through the system will look like soap.