So I just got a notice that a customer who's vehicle went off the track is taking me to small claims court for damages to his vehicle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated from other operators who have been to small claims court. Is there anything I should prepare to take as evidence that helped you in your small claims case?
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Small Claims Court
- Thread starter hkim310
- Start date
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
You are rolling the dice unless you have video which shows the driver doing something stupid.
Is the driver taking you to court directly or did their insurance company file a subrogation claim?
One thing I tried was to bring a video of how the wash works and tried to make an anology to a moving sidewalk or escalator placed horizontally. I was there for one occurrence and tested the guys tires . 15 PSI in one front and 60 in the other. Customer testified vehicle was in fine mechanical shape and no mechanical issues caused by wash. Repair bill included a wheel alignment.
Judge stated "You take the customers as you find them" which is a damages maxim sometimes referred to as the eggshell Plaintiff and has nothing to do with Liability. Judge also said I could have examined the vehicle before it went thru. Repair bill had damage repairs on all 24 sides and customer testified only left side was damaged. Insurance company lawyer still asked for 100% of the bill and judge awarded half.
Another case had the judge say. "I know how those car washes can do. they can throw you off the track and throw you back on again.
I bring a checkbook with me. If I loose i ask the judge not to enter judgement and I will pay in court. Some Ins company attorneys notoriously bad in issuing release and satisfaction of judgement if you pay later.
Is the driver taking you to court directly or did their insurance company file a subrogation claim?
One thing I tried was to bring a video of how the wash works and tried to make an anology to a moving sidewalk or escalator placed horizontally. I was there for one occurrence and tested the guys tires . 15 PSI in one front and 60 in the other. Customer testified vehicle was in fine mechanical shape and no mechanical issues caused by wash. Repair bill included a wheel alignment.
Judge stated "You take the customers as you find them" which is a damages maxim sometimes referred to as the eggshell Plaintiff and has nothing to do with Liability. Judge also said I could have examined the vehicle before it went thru. Repair bill had damage repairs on all 24 sides and customer testified only left side was damaged. Insurance company lawyer still asked for 100% of the bill and judge awarded half.
Another case had the judge say. "I know how those car washes can do. they can throw you off the track and throw you back on again.
I bring a checkbook with me. If I loose i ask the judge not to enter judgement and I will pay in court. Some Ins company attorneys notoriously bad in issuing release and satisfaction of judgement if you pay later.
MEP001
Well-known member
Did the car belong to Gary Gygax? (D&D nerd joke)
rph9168
Carwashguy
I agree with much of what Earl has stated. You might also bring your records of how many cars you have washed without incident along with support information from your insurance company that they have never paid a damage claim at your wash. These cases are a crap shoot depending on the judge and the person filing the suit. In Arizona attorneys were not allowed in a small claims court which made it easier to defend yourself. If that is the same in your state if the insurance company is involved they cannot bring in a lawyer. If they do allow lawyers you might want to use one yourself depending on how much the claim would cost if you lose.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“Is there anything I should prepare to take as evidence that helped you in your small claims case?”
Each state has its own rules governing small claims.
For example, in Florida, rules apply to actions of a civil nature in county courts which contain a demand for money or property, value of which does not exceed $5,000 exclusive of costs, interest, and attorneys’ fees.
There are also rules on discovery for parties proceeding with or without an attorney.
Discovery is pre-trial procedure whereby parties can obtain evidence from each other like request for answers to interrogatories, production of documents, videos, etc.
There is also filing fee (i.e. $500) to cover administration costs. So, if a customer goes through with something like this, it’s not frivolous to them.
Above all else, you must address the claim that the claimant has “signed” off on.
For example, the conveyor pitched my car up and off the guide rail and then one of the front wheels fell through the conveyor pit grading and my vehicle was damaged.
I believe it happened because Mr. Carwash does not take care of his wash properly.
For example, Mr. Carwash was not able to provide copy of operator’s manual containing standard operating procedures or a safety and accident prevention plan or maintenance service log.
In other words, Mr. Carwash has no proof of due care.
Since you are new at this, it might be worth the investment to engage an attorney for this case in order to learn the process in your county and state.
Otherwise, most liberal art colleges will have advocacy program for stuff like auto lemon law and small claim court. Volunteers are usually law students.
Hope this helps.
Each state has its own rules governing small claims.
For example, in Florida, rules apply to actions of a civil nature in county courts which contain a demand for money or property, value of which does not exceed $5,000 exclusive of costs, interest, and attorneys’ fees.
There are also rules on discovery for parties proceeding with or without an attorney.
Discovery is pre-trial procedure whereby parties can obtain evidence from each other like request for answers to interrogatories, production of documents, videos, etc.
There is also filing fee (i.e. $500) to cover administration costs. So, if a customer goes through with something like this, it’s not frivolous to them.
Above all else, you must address the claim that the claimant has “signed” off on.
For example, the conveyor pitched my car up and off the guide rail and then one of the front wheels fell through the conveyor pit grading and my vehicle was damaged.
I believe it happened because Mr. Carwash does not take care of his wash properly.
For example, Mr. Carwash was not able to provide copy of operator’s manual containing standard operating procedures or a safety and accident prevention plan or maintenance service log.
In other words, Mr. Carwash has no proof of due care.
Since you are new at this, it might be worth the investment to engage an attorney for this case in order to learn the process in your county and state.
Otherwise, most liberal art colleges will have advocacy program for stuff like auto lemon law and small claim court. Volunteers are usually law students.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for all of the replies! The driver himself represented by his lawyer is taking us to court, not his insurance company. He is suing us for $1400. The amount is not enough for us to want to hire a lawyer. We will prepare all necessary video/documents and hope for the best with the judge.
Please let us know what happens! Good Luck!!!
robert roman
Bob Roman
Yeah, let us know how it goes.
My bet is you will be shredded by the attorney and you get stuck with judgment for $1,400 plus court costs and driver’s attorney fees.
My bet is you will be shredded by the attorney and you get stuck with judgment for $1,400 plus court costs and driver’s attorney fees.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Can't speak for any particular jurisdiction, however the "American Rule" is that the prevailing party does not recover attorney fees unless there is a contract providing for such or unless another exception like a statute applies. Costs - Filing and service of process fees are typically awarded
rph9168
Carwashguy
A lot depends on the judge and the attorney. Sometimes judges are annoyed when an attorney goes overboard. I would keep my defense simple and compelling. As I said before, small claims are a real crap shoot and impossible to predict the outcome. Good luck.
Thanks for the vote of confidence Robert Roman.....hahaha. For those that have been through this process before, how was the attorney able to PROVE that the car wash caused the vehicle to come off the conveyor track? Do they actually specify exactly which piece of equipment caused this to occur? I will keep you all informed of the outcome of my case!
rph9168
Carwashguy
I was involved only once in a similar situation but there was no attorney in court although the guy did have an attorney help him put together his case. He made no attempt to say which piece of equipment caused the problem. He focused more on the damage done to his vehicle. We presented the information on how many vehicles we had safely washed and how difficult it would be for us to stay in business if we damaged vehicles all the time. We won.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Attny / Plaintiff was not only unable to prove it, they submitted zero evidence of negligent operation, or malfunction. Sample of Judges comments: "I know how those car washes do, they can throw you off the track and throw you back on again" Or in the case where I submitted video of how the conveyor works, compared it to an escalator or moving sidewalk, testified how rare the occurrence was and how the car had 15 psi in one front tire and 60psi in the other, the repair bill included repairs for wheel alignment and the driver testified there were no alignment issues caused by the wash, the judge says "You could have inspected the vehicle before it went thru and you take the vehicles as you find them" - Awarded half the amount claimed . PROOF? DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' PROOF."
Robert2181
Member
I know it can seem unethical, but make sure you have "the sign" out that states use at your own risk. Simple fact is there will always be the exception to the rule.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“….the judge says "You could have inspected the vehicle before it went thru and you take the vehicles as you find them" - Awarded half the amount claimed.”
Due care is inspecting vehicles before you handle/work on them.
For example,
“….and how the car had 15 psi in one front tire and 60psi in the other…”
Pressure difference of this magnitude would clearly be visible. Don’t send car through.
“…..compared it (conveyor) to an escalator or moving sidewalk….”
Apples to oranges comparisons in legal proceedings are like clouds that obscure the sun.
Conveyor is similar but clearly not an escalator.
“….make sure you have "the sign" out that states use at your own risk.”
The “sign” has applications (i.e. stadium parking lot, hotel parking garage) but is rather meaningless for service business.
Once service provider takes control of customers vehicle, they have responsibility to provide due care.
Due care is inspecting vehicles before you handle/work on them.
For example,
“….and how the car had 15 psi in one front tire and 60psi in the other…”
Pressure difference of this magnitude would clearly be visible. Don’t send car through.
“…..compared it (conveyor) to an escalator or moving sidewalk….”
Apples to oranges comparisons in legal proceedings are like clouds that obscure the sun.
Conveyor is similar but clearly not an escalator.
“….make sure you have "the sign" out that states use at your own risk.”
The “sign” has applications (i.e. stadium parking lot, hotel parking garage) but is rather meaningless for service business.
Once service provider takes control of customers vehicle, they have responsibility to provide due care.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Well Robert, I live in the real world, reject your reality and substitute the one we live in.
#1. I was there. It was a Van. Pressure difference was not readily apparent from a visual inspection.
#2 In reality, in an EE with one loader, the idea of walking around each vehicle to inspect is not realistic. I have never seen any of the EEs with one loader do this . It is not the current standard of care.
#3 Of course escalators / moving sidewalks are not the same as a car wash conveyor. BUT it is the closest thing in most people's experience. That is why it is called a "Comparison".
rph9168
Carwashguy
I believe that "due" care depends largely on the format for the wash. It is not a "due" or standard care in an EE or automatic to inspect every vehicle. Since the driver never leaves the vehicle at least partial responsibility lies with the driver. It is reasonable for a customer not to expect damage to occur but it does not remove total responsibility from them if it does occur due to the condition of their vehicle or any actions they may have taken while the wash was in process. Preexisting conditions of the vehicle should be taken into consideration as well as possible equipment malfunction or driver error. If the equipment is proven to be faulty is one thing but to have equipment damage a random vehicle is not logical or reasonable. While I still think it is something of a crap shoot in small claims court it is not impossible to win a case either. From my experience judges can be biased in favor or against plaintiffs based on many variables.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“……I live in the real world, reject your reality and substitute the one we live in.”
I never worked at or managed a tunnel wash where we did not inspect every vehicle, every day before it was loaded into a tunnel regardless of the type of conveyor.
Most of the conveyor chains I am familiar with have a procedure for it written into their operations manuals (i.e. Car Spa, Wash Depot, Mission Bell, Mike’s, Mister, etc.).
What is so hard about it?
One quick walk around the car – mirrors, window up, antenna down, loose trim loose, tires (filled, not bald), obvious damage.
Carwash operators that are unwilling to inspect vehicles before sending into tunnel are either ignorant of the potential liability, lazy or too cheap to spend the labor.
“We are not liable for anything” sign is copout.
I’ve convinced some of the operators I’ve worked with to take such signs down.
I just came back in from lowering the air in my wife’s car from 55 psi to 15 psi.
It looks pretty darn flat to me.
What does the van have semi-solid tires?
As I alluded to, my experience as expert witness is attorneys do not want testimony that clouds the central issue.
The issue is car jumps conveyor and/or wheel falls through conveyor pit grading.
How is this similar to child getting foot or hand stuck in escalator?
I never worked at or managed a tunnel wash where we did not inspect every vehicle, every day before it was loaded into a tunnel regardless of the type of conveyor.
Most of the conveyor chains I am familiar with have a procedure for it written into their operations manuals (i.e. Car Spa, Wash Depot, Mission Bell, Mike’s, Mister, etc.).
What is so hard about it?
One quick walk around the car – mirrors, window up, antenna down, loose trim loose, tires (filled, not bald), obvious damage.
Carwash operators that are unwilling to inspect vehicles before sending into tunnel are either ignorant of the potential liability, lazy or too cheap to spend the labor.
“We are not liable for anything” sign is copout.
I’ve convinced some of the operators I’ve worked with to take such signs down.
I just came back in from lowering the air in my wife’s car from 55 psi to 15 psi.
It looks pretty darn flat to me.
What does the van have semi-solid tires?
As I alluded to, my experience as expert witness is attorneys do not want testimony that clouds the central issue.
The issue is car jumps conveyor and/or wheel falls through conveyor pit grading.
How is this similar to child getting foot or hand stuck in escalator?
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
<<<
No one said anything about falling thru pit grating. Further having a roller behind the rear tire is like having a step under someones feet. After proceeding 75 feet or so the person suddenly goes to the left over the escalator rail. That is the analogy.
