Help choosing soft water system

[slash007]

At one wash I don't have soft water and want to add it so that I can have spot free, and also just soft water in general for all other functions. It is a six bay with no automatics. How do I know what size system I need? I see some with one tank and others with dual tanks. 1 would save space, but I'm not sure what benefits I would be giving up. Any advice is appreciated.

Zoro has a bunch, but no idea what I need. They do have 25% off today and free shipping, so I'm guessing it might be a good deal to get it from them. For example:
https://www.zoro.com/north-star-water-softener-service-flow-rate-15-gpm-pa071s/i/G2458084/

 

[2Biz]

I would think you'd want ta dual tank unit. I have a dual tank...But would have to look up the capacity. It regins about every 9,000 gallons of water used. When one tank regenerates, it switches to the other tank that is already softened. I think single tank units regenerates sometime in the night when there is not supposed to be any use. They usually regenerate based on time and not volume. I don't know how that would work for a CW?

 

[slash007]

"Twin alternating water softeners are used where there is a demand for continuous soft water without any down time. Perfect for business, heavy water use and light commercial applications."

I saw that online, so I guess for a car wash I would need the double tank. Just not sure of what capacity. Also, are they going to be similar, or are some brands better than others?

 

[MEP001]

There are single-tank softeners with a meter but they don't generate when depleted, so you're always regenerating early (to keep soft water) or late (and letting some hard water get by.

The one from Zoro Tool might be too small - just because the head can flow 15 GPM doesn't mean the media can soften that fast.

 

[slash007]

I've been doing some research and 2 tanks are the way to go. I have decided to only use soft water for my RO and chemicals, so I'll run my rinse using hard water and won't need as big of a tank. Doug over at Ginsan has a good reasonably priced system, so I'll probably just go that route.

 

[soapy]

The first thing you need to find out is how hard the water is where you are at. It is measured in grains. I have 22 grain hard water which is very hard. I would call a local supplier and have them give you a bid and try to find out what the local water hardness is. From there you can shop around on what you really need. I have bought several large home units from Dultmeier sales at a competitive price. My large units are from Culligan. twin 300,000 gallon tanks with 2 inch water lines. 6 SS bays at 3.5 gal per minute would be 21 gpm needed minimum and probably more when your RO is running. Dultmeier can help you with size for your location.

 

[slash007]

I measured the hardness a while back and it was 19 grains. Two weeks ago it was 7. From what I was told, it varies, but that is usually the range. Since I would be only using soft water for RO and the hydrominder tanks, I would assume that I would need much less gpm. The rinse itself has to be the majority of the water usage.

 

[slash007]

On another note, I might need a chlorine tank/filter as well. Here is what came with my setup, but it might be a soft water tank? Can you tell by looking at the picture? The larger tank has a head on it, the smaller one does not. Also, brass valves seem to cost a lot more than the plastic valves. Are the plastic valves durable, or is it worth the extra cost to go brass?

View attachment 895 View attachment 894

 

[2Biz]

I'll share an experience I had to maybe help you make the best decision. I have a twin Fleck 9000 with 60,000 grain tank capacity each, I think? My water comes in at 5 grains and I soften to zero....My final soap ratio is like 3500 to 1 using standard soap from Warsaw...90-1 hydrominder and 10 oz's per minute into the pump. Pump puts out 3gpm or 384 oz per minute. Doing the math, 90 x 38.4 = 3456 to 1 ratio...A 5 gallon bucket of soap lasts me months! And it comes out white as paint at the gun!

Last winter I went to the wash and noticed my soap was dead. No soap on High Pressure. Looked like rinse water.. I was still drawing 10 oz's a minute of soap into the pump and the soap looked like it wasn't over diluted in the hydrominder, due to a clogged tip. So I decided to check hardness. I was at 15 grains and 15 grains from the street. I had run out of softened water and it completely killed my soap. Drilling back, they had a major breakdown at the water treatment plant. Took 2 weeks to fix it. All I had to do, was regenerate at 3000 gallons instead of 9000...Even then, I wasn't able to get to "0" like before. But at least my soap worked at that hardness without increasing ratio's.

So moral of story, pay for a good softener up front that softens everything except weep and buy a little salt every month, or pay it out in chemicals! Your choice. Its amazing how little soap and wax I use running that soft of water.

Oh and I almost forgot the best benefit! No spots on cars! Customers Love it!

 

[slash007]

I do plan on making sure I have the right softener, just not sure if there is a difference between brands etc. There are plastic heads and brass heads, and the costs vary greatly.

 

[Stuart]

I have Kenetico brand dual tanks. They work well. They are set up to recharge based on hardness of water and capacity of tank - which pretty much all softeners do. It is just whether they are time based or gallon/grain based. You should call you local water dept and ask them for their hardness results being delivered to the customer. hope this helps

 

[2Biz]

Do you know what your highest possible water usage can be, including SFR?

 

[2Biz]

Looks like when you jump above a 96,000 grain system, the price really jumps. 96,000 grain is about $1600...A 120,000 grain is about $3400

http://www.discountwatersofteners.c...-softeners/fleck-softeners/fleck-9100sxt.html

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/water-softeners/commercial-softeners.html

 

[slash007]

Do you know what your highest possible water usage can be, including SFR?

No idea. We figured around 24gpm if I was doing the whole wash, but if I'm going to rinse with hard water, the soft water requirements are way less. Not sure how to calculate it for just the 2 RO membranes and then the hydrominder/rinse tanks.

 

[cantbreak80]

A busy 6 bay with 3000 gpd RO system will likely use 24-26 gpm.

Problem with the Fleck 2900 valve is the 15 psi pressure drop when in regeneration. Suddenly, the normally operating Hydrominders no longer draw chemicals.

A better system would use the Fleck 2900 with it's higher flow rate. A twin, alternating system can be found for around $4,200. Yeah, more expensive but it comes with less brain damage as standard equipment.
http://www.affordablewater.us/Fleck...sbrfont-colorredFree-Shippingfont--P1021.aspx

I'm not a fan of hard water rinse, or barely sufficient equipment.

 

[MEP001]

On another note, I might need a chlorine tank/filter as well. Here is what came with my setup, but it might be a soft water tank? Can you tell by looking at the picture? The larger tank has a head on it, the smaller one does not. Also, brass valves seem to cost a lot more than the plastic valves. Are the plastic valves durable, or is it worth the extra cost to go brass?

View attachment 895 View attachment 894

That's a chlorine filter head - there's no brine valve. You can see where it would go behind the motor output shaft on the left.

I've repaired many softeners and have never seen an issue with a plastic head. I've seen brass ones erode just like a pump head, though that was because it was left running with bad seals for years.

 

[MEP001]

Looks like when you jump above a 96,000 grain system, the price really jumps. 96,000 grain is about $1600...A 120,000 grain is about $3400

http://www.discountwatersofteners.c...-softeners/fleck-softeners/fleck-9100sxt.html

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/water-softeners/commercial-softeners.html

The ones in your first link are 3/4" and 1" valves, the ones in your second are 1 1/2" and 2" which is why they cost so much more. You can put a 9100 head on a pair of 120,000 grain tank and it doesn't increase the cost but a few hundred dollars.

 

[slash007]

That's a chlorine filter head - there's no brine valve. You can see where it would go behind the motor output shaft on the left.

I've repaired many softeners and have never seen an issue with a plastic head. I've seen brass ones erode just like a pump head, though that was because it was left running with bad seals for years.

So if the tank with the head is a chlorine tank, I won't need one I guess. Is there a way to check the material inside and see if it is any good, or needs replacing? Mep, what do you suggest I need regarding minimum flow rates and grains if I am only running the RO and chemicals with soft water? My inlet is 1.5" to the wash. Thanks.

 

[2Biz]

My Fleck 9000 has 1" valves. Good find on the Fleck 2900 Twin Alternating Valve....Just wondering though, how does a Twin Head Alternate? Mine has one head and alternates between both tanks through the one head.

CB-80....I agree with your statement. "I'm not a fan of hard water rinse, or barely sufficient equipment."

I get positive comments all the time on how good the water is at my wash. I get asked why it doesn't leave spots like the rest of the washes?!?! It leaves you with a good feeling to know the effort (and cost) is paying off.

 

[2Biz]

Slash, when you say you are only going to soften Chemicals and RO, on trhe chemical side, does that mean you are only going to soften water to the hydrominders? Or do you mean that you are going to soften hot water to the HP gun which will be for soap and wax?