Help choosing soft water system

[slash007]

Slash, when you say you are only going to soften Chemicals and RO, on trhe chemical side, does that mean you are only going to soften water to the hydrominders? Or do you mean that you are going to soften hot water to the HP gun which will be for soap and wax?

I planned on running city cold to the rinse/weep manifold, then soft hot to the rinse tank (soap/pre-soak/wax) and then soft cold to the hydrominders. I was thinking about it and might just run soft/hot the hydrominders as well. They don't really use that much and with my HE water tank, I don't think it will make a big difference on my gas bill.

 

[mrfixit]

Looking at a softener the most important thing to look at is flow rate and pressure drop of the head at the flow you require, also the water usage and additional pressure drop when regenerating.. ie. It may be a softener capable of 40 gpm but with a 30psi drop that can be a major problem. At 25gpm it may have a 3 psi drop. Much better for car washes. Most softener companies will fail you in recommending the proper system, they are stuck on residential. Go bigger than they recommend.

Secondly the amount of resin you need depends on the gpm you will use and hardness of your water. The rule of thumb by resin manufacturers is 1 cubic foot per 5 gpm flow. I would highly recommend to get close to this amount of resin to flow your water through.

The # of gallons before regenerating is based off the hardness of the water. With fluctuating hardness that's a bit of a pain, I would go with a number in the middle of your hardness range for setting cycles. A few grains won't kill the system. Or go with the high and have some over salting at times.

 

[MEP001]

So if the tank with the head is a chlorine tank, I won't need one I guess. Is there a way to check the material inside and see if it is any good, or needs replacing? Mep, what do you suggest I need regarding minimum flow rates and grains if I am only running the RO and chemicals with soft water? My inlet is 1.5" to the wash. Thanks.

I don't know of any way to test the prefilter media other than run water through it and test for chlorine, but the charcoal is cheap. I've always just changed the media with the membrane.

I had a book that listed both the flow rates of softener heads and maximum flow rate through various size tanks and still get completely softened water, but I don't have that info anymore. I would think a 90,000 grain softener would be sufficient for a 6-bay.

 

[slash007]

I don't know of any way to test the prefilter media other than run water through it and test for chlorine, but the charcoal is cheap. I've always just changed the media with the membrane.

I had a book that listed both the flow rates of softener heads and maximum flow rate through various size tanks and still get completely softened water, but I don't have that info anymore. I would think a 90,000 grain softener would be sufficient for a 6-bay.

If that head is for the charcoal filter, then I'll just change the media in it and not need to buy one if the head works. Is it as simple as dumping it out and pouring in the new?

 

[MEP001]

Almost, it needs filter gravel in first. It's not hard to do - I've changed at least 50 by myself.

 

[2Biz]

I planned on running city cold to the rinse/weep manifold, then soft hot to the rinse tank (soap/pre-soak/wax) and then soft cold to the hydrominders. I was thinking about it and might just run soft/hot the hydrominders as well. They don't really use that much and with my HE water tank, I don't think it will make a big difference on my gas bill.

I was hoping as much. Running softened water through that new HE water heater will lengthen its life and make it more Energy Efficient for a longer period of time ! I can't image calcium stuck to the heat exchange tubes being a good thing?

I've never thought about running hot water to my hydrominders. Don't know what the benefit would be?

 

[slash007]

Not sure there is much benefit other than less plumbing for me up front lol. They are on the other side of the ER from where the softener will be, so less work. My current setup has the FB, PS and Wax hydrominders using hot water. I was searching online yesterday and came across this:

Hardness levels leaving our water treatment
plants in 2015 averaged 181 ppm (hard) or about 11 grains per gallon and ranged from 65 (moderately hard) to
426 ppm (very hard) or about 4 to 25 grains per gallon.

Now that is a hell of a range to work with.

 

[mrfixit]

That fluctuation would be nuts.. It is usually caused by the city pulling from different wells at different times or demands. This is apparently common in Utah.

In theory a hardness monitoring system would really be best. Here's an example of one company.http://cleanwaterutah.com/water-softeners/
(example only didn't look at full specs)

Oversalting is almost as bad as hard water, salt spots and harder to rinse soap off... plus it's money down the drain.

 

[cantbreak80]

That system uses 2 conductivity sensors per tank to measure hardness. It appears that Pentair (Fleck) only offers the sensor system with their ¾” and 1” 9100TS valve. Unfortunately, the 1” valve flow rating is 21 gpm continuous with a 15psi drop…peak is 28 gpm with 25psi drop.

Specs here: http://waterpurification.pentair.com/en-US/product/whole-water-treatment-system/9100ts/

 

[slash007]

Here is a system I was quoted by Ginsan, base on only treating the RO and hydrominders.. Thoughts?

Price 1: Commercial Softener: Water Lovers 1.25" metered twin alternating 45,000 grain water softening system.
Mineral tank size: 10x54 (2).
Capacity: Efficient: 30,000 grains....Peak: 45,000 grains.
Flow rate: Continuous: 19 gpm......Peak: 28 gpm.
Brine Tank: 18x40 w/ grid.

 

[MEP001]

The Ginsan system is a Fleck. Price them both, I'm sure you can get a Fleck somewhere else for less.

 

[mrfixit]

I've had both fleck and kinetico. I liked the fleck but after time I'm starting to like the kinetico a lot, repair is simpler and cheaper. It has a failure occasionally but it's a cheap part and pretty easy fix.

Guess you need to decide how much water you are going to use from it. If you have a smart water meter you can see the flow rate live.

If your going 24gpm I would get 5 cu ft of resin or 2..5 each for a twin. (1cu/5gpm) Looks like fleck has "improved" the kinetico design, at the link here the 25 is what I would get for 24gpm flow.
http://www.flecksystems.com/fleck-9100-sxt-twin-alternating-metered-water-softener.html

 

[slash007]

I've had both fleck and kinetico. I liked the fleck but after time I'm starting to like the kinetico a lot, repair is simpler and cheaper. It has a failure occasionally but it's a cheap part and pretty easy fix.

Guess you need to decide how much water you are going to use from it. If you have a smart water meter you can see the flow rate live.

If your going 24gpm I would get 5 cu ft of resin or 2..5 each for a twin. (1cu/5gpm) Looks like fleck has "improved" the kinetico design, at the link here the 25 is what I would get for 24gpm flow.
http://www.flecksystems.com/fleck-9100-sxt-twin-alternating-metered-water-softener.html

24gpm was based on using soft water for everything. If I am only using it for RO and they chemicals, what gpm should I expect to be using max? Not sure how to figure that out. I know rinse is a huge part of the 3.5gpm per bay figure, so not sure how much of the 3.5 is because of the rinse. Soap/wax/pre-soak will all use the rinse tank at high/medium pressure, so there will still be decent use.

 

[soapy]

July 2016 Professional Carwash and detailing magazine is devoted to water treatment. Might be a good idea to pick one up to read.

 

[slash007]

I ended up buying a system that has a flow rate of 25gpm. That should be more than enough for just using soft water for the chemicals and soap/wax HP functions. Now I need to also buy a Chlorine filter for my spot free. I am finding that the flow rates for those are way less. Can I get by with a 10gpm flow rate for the chlorine filter since that is only used for making the spot free water? It is for a 6 bay wash and spot free will be delivered at 300 psi, but not sure if that matters since the delivery is just taking the water from the spot free tank and sending it out. I do have a fairly large spot free tank, so I can produce it much slower and still be fine. Just not sure if 10gpm is fine, or if I have to go larger. Need to decide today if possible, so any input is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[MGSMN]

10 GPM should be adequate flow up to a 4 membrane system where the membranes are no larger then 4x40.

 

[slash007]

Thanks. Mine is a 2 membrane system, both 4*40. I was told that having a lower flow rate on the chlorine filter would effectively lower the flow rate of the whole system, but I don't see how that can be the case since the chlorine filter will be tee'd off and then just supply the spot free system. Am I looking at that correctly?

 

[MEP001]

It won't affect the whole system unless the chlorine filter is so undersized that it's starving the pumps. It's definitely better to go a bit oversized since a charcoal filter can only remove all the chlorine up to a certain flow rate even though it can flow more. At a point you'll start passing some through.

 

[slash007]

It won't affect the whole system unless the chlorine filter is so undersized that it's starving the pumps. It's definitely better to go a bit oversized since a charcoal filter can only remove all the chlorine up to a certain flow rate even though it can flow more. At a point you'll start passing some through.

Do you think a chlorine filter at 10gpm would suffice for my setup?

 

[MEP001]

Yes, two membranes @ 3600 GPD should be no more than 7.5 GPM total flow when producing.