How to test concentration of soap, wax, foam brush etc....?

[Scottyk]

Also I am curious, if I do run a separate system for pre-soak I can obviously run a dedicated chemical for that. I see alot of high PH and low PH soaps out there, would the customer benefit from a better cleaning power if I run a low PH pre-soak and a high PH HP wash?

While Im on that subject, right now I am not running any compressed air into my presoak but I have heard of people making presoak more foamy by using air injection and a foam generator just like a foam brush. I think that would at least give the customer a good feeling seeing more foam compared to how it is right now, any guys on here prefer one over the other?

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Be careful about getting too acidic (lower PH) in a self-serve bay. When a customer puts it on his scalding hot black BMW and leaves it on there while he takes his time brushing, it will naturally be all your fault when his paint is damaged.

 

[Greg Pack]

Low ph does not typically clean road film well on painted surfaces. It will enhance the appearance of glass and metal trim. High ph presoak is much more effective on painted surface.

High pressure wash is 90% show. By the time you have diluted the soap to the level it comes out in the bay you're getting very little, if any cleaning power out of most products. Some powders might have builders in them that have marginal cleaning ability, but most liquids do not. I try to tell customers to skip the wash cycle. It is much more effective to use a good presoak followed by HP rinse. But the customer wants to see their damn suds, so I give it to them.

I think air in the presoak makes for a better show. It also clings to the surface of the vehicle better Some people heat their presoak solution and feel it is counter productive to aerate it with foam, which cools it back down.

 

[MEP001]

I have to disagree that high pressure soap doesn't clean. I've both seen and operated washes where high pressure alone will remove enough grime that it looks clean.

I adjust presoak with air so that there's a minute amount of foam, barely enough to slow the liquid flow and make it just slightly foam. IMO it's not enough air to cool hot presoak.

 

[2Biz]

Also I am curious, if I do run a separate system for pre-soak I can obviously run a dedicated chemical for that. I see alot of high PH and low PH soaps out there, would the customer benefit from a better cleaning power if I run a low PH pre-soak and a high PH HP wash?

While Im on that subject, right now I am not running any compressed air into my presoak but I have heard of people making presoak more foamy by using air injection and a foam generator just like a foam brush. I think that would at least give the customer a good feeling seeing more foam compared to how it is right now, any guys on here prefer one over the other?

If you run Warsaw, you might want to check out their formula 554 PS...The MSDS says the PH is greater than 12....This is what I use and it works pretty good at the recommended dilution. Orange tip 64-1...I run it out of the foam gun instead of the HP gun. And also run it through a foamer...60 psi air on the Flojet....Air is tee'd at the foamer and is set to 30 psi...Running a 40-40 nozzle on the foam gun lets it fan out but still foam enough to help it stick to the car.

 

[Scottyk]

I guess I should have stated that I do not have a foam gun or tri foam at all. Just a foam brush and wash wand. I was thinking of trying air injecting my existing presoak and running that thru the same wand.

 

[2Biz]

When I bought the wash, it was set up with PS that came out the HP wand with the same settings on the air and flojet as I use now. Air and PS was tee'd above each bay with (3) cv's. One each on air and PS and a 3rd one between those 2 and the manifold (actually just a 90° fitting in the trough)...Redundancy I guess...My pumpstand got flooded more than once when somebody left the PS on without pulling the wand trigger. PS (at a higher PSI) backfed through the air line and came out the regulator. Performance (IMHO) was also poor because of trying to force PS through such a small nozzle designed for 1200 PSI....Remember 60 psi air on the flojet...

Switching PS to a separate gun In my case the TF gun, eliminated all those issues. No more CV's and a nozzle size that works well at 60 psi flojet pressure.

Are you running a flojet for PS? If you are, then you can set it up as I mentioned above...Its just not optimum for the reasons I mentioned.....

 

[Scottyk]

When I bought the wash, it was set up with PS that came out the HP wand with the same settings on the air and flojet as I use now. Air and PS was tee'd above each bay with (3) cv's. One each on air and PS and a 3rd one between those 2 and the manifold (actually just a 90° fitting in the trough)...Redundancy I guess...My pumpstand got flooded more than once when somebody left the PS on without pulling the wand trigger. PS (at a higher PSI) backfed through the air line and came out the regulator. Performance (IMHO) was also poor because of trying to force PS through such a small nozzle designed for 1200 PSI....Remember 60 psi air on the flojet...

Switching PS to a separate gun In my case the TF gun, eliminated all those issues. No more CV's and a nozzle size that works well at 60 psi flojet pressure.

Are you running a flojet for PS? If you are, then you can set it up as I mentioned above...Its just not optimum for the reasons I mentioned.....

My presoak comes from the small Hydrominder tank into a procon pump with a pressure reservoir tank that has a check valve going into it, then thru the solenoid block and into the CV manifold then the wand. I cant remember the pressure off the top of my head "even tho I just put a new gauge on it", but the high pressure pump is not running while presoak function is selected.

 

[Randy]

I run my Presoak out of the HP gun. I haven’t replaced a Check valve in years. I run the Presoak at around 130 psi with a Procon pump controlled with a IDX MX-8 multiplexer, I haven’t replaced a Procon pump in years, can’t remember when I last had to replace one. Since I’m running a higher pressure on the Presoak the air had little or no effect on the foaming on the Presoak so I turned off the air to it years ago, no one has ever complained and it still comes out nice.

 

[2Biz]

Randy's method was my second choice! Especially if I would have kept PS on the HP wand...

 

[MEP001]

I've set up several presoak systems where they wanted highest pressure possible - used a larger Procon on a 3/4 HP motor and ran it at 100 PSI with a very small amount of air. That air cuts the time to reach the tip in half and really helps cover the car.

 

[loewem]

I was thinking of putting in a another minder so I can use a pre-soak formula for pre-soak, and wash formula for HP soap. BUT I really do not know if this would really benefit me or the customer, I have tried running pre-soak chemical and wash soap chemical and I personally did not notice a difference in cleaning effectiveness. I am planning on re-plumbing the entire Equipment room this summer so it would not be a huge deal to make changes like this. I know I can go off the hydrominder chart for the chemicals that are fed directly from the hydrominder.

Since you are considering separating pre-soak and soap you might want to consider putting in a triple foam gun to run your pre-soak through. At the same time you could add triple foam as an option if you have a spot for it on your meter box door. Even if you don't have a spot for an additional function you might give it some thought. You want the customer to keep the meter running and more options will help with that. Some operators don't care for triple foam, but I like it because my customers like it.

My wash was set up to run bug and tar remover and pre-soak through the high pressure gun. I had the same issues that Randy mentioned with trying to get it to foam. The thing that I disliked most about running pre-soak and bug and tar remover through the high pressure gun was that it took some time to get to the bays. I was able to get it to the bays in less than ten seconds, but the flo-jet sounded like a machine gun. Then mixing in air was a pain. I took advice from 2BIZ and tried running pre-soak and bug and tar remover through the triple foam gun. It worked great, so I changed over every bay. The customers love it and I'm pretty sure that I'm using less chemical even though the customers continually comment on how much more they are getting than the old way. Through the hp gun I had the air to my flo-jet set at 80 psi and the needle valves prior to the solenoids open 2 1/2 to 3 full turns. The flo-jet sounded like a machine gun. When I switched to the triple foam gun I was able to reduce the air pressure to the flo-jet to about 55 psi and the needles valves open 5/8 to 3/4 of a turn. I'll be able to tell better over time if I'm using less pre-soak, I'm pretty sure I'm not using more the new way. A couple of benefits of using the triple foam gun is that it only takes a few seconds for the pre-soak to come out at full strength and now I've only got one check valve on my hp manifold. Check out before and after for pre-soak at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGWcD34fq-w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCq0DY68o7w. The after was before I switched every bay over so the air to the flo-jet was still set at about 80 psi. At 60 psi I've been able to make it foam better.

I've done a lot of work in my pump room and a valuable tip that Randy and 2BIZ shared with me was to use push to fit connects when possible. There were some John Guest and Watts push to fit connections in the pump room, but most things were brass barbs. 2BIZ suggested SMC push to fit connections and that was one of the best suggestions I have gotten so far. I use the SMC for liquid connections and Mettleair for air connections (a little cheaper and they are good quality). Another good tip to was to use at least 1/4" ID hose out to the bays. I had 1/8 on my triple foam and switching to 1/4 was a huge improvement.

 

[sparkey]

Since you are considering separating pre-soak and soap you might want to consider putting in a triple foam gun to run your pre-soak through. At the same time you could add triple foam as an option if you have a spot for it on your meter box door. Even if you don't have a spot for an additional function you might give it some thought. You want the customer to keep the meter running and more options will help with that. Some operators don't care for triple foam, but I like it because my customers like it.

My wash was set up to run bug and tar remover and pre-soak through the high pressure gun. I had the same issues that Randy mentioned with trying to get it to foam. The thing that I disliked most about running pre-soak and bug and tar remover through the high pressure gun was that it took some time to get to the bays. I was able to get it to the bays in less than ten seconds, but the flo-jet sounded like a machine gun. Then mixing in air was a pain. I took advice from 2BIZ and tried running pre-soak and bug and tar remover through the triple foam gun. It worked great, so I changed over every bay. The customers love it and I'm pretty sure that I'm using less chemical even though the customers continually comment on how much more they are getting than the old way. Through the hp gun I had the air to my flo-jet set at 80 psi and the needle valves prior to the solenoids open 2 1/2 to 3 full turns. The flo-jet sounded like a machine gun. When I switched to the triple foam gun I was able to reduce the air pressure to the flo-jet to about 55 psi and the needles valves open 5/8 to 3/4 of a turn. I'll be able to tell better over time if I'm using less pre-soak, I'm pretty sure I'm not using more the new way. A couple of benefits of using the triple foam gun is that it only takes a few seconds for the pre-soak to come out at full strength and now I've only got one check valve on my hp manifold. Check out before and after for pre-soak at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGWcD34fq-w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCq0DY68o7w. The after was before I switched every bay over so the air to the flo-jet was still set at about 80 psi. At 60 psi I've been able to make it foam better.

I've done a lot of work in my pump room and a valuable tip that Randy and 2BIZ shared with me was to use push to fit connects when possible. There were some John Guest and Watts push to fit connections in the pump room, but most things were brass barbs. 2BIZ suggested SMC push to fit connections and that was one of the best suggestions I have gotten so far. I use the SMC for liquid connections and Mettleair for air connections (a little cheaper and they are good quality). Another good tip to was to use at least 1/4" ID hose out to the bays. I had 1/8 on my triple foam and switching to 1/4 was a huge improvement.

How do you keep the extra gun from freezing in the winter? Are you using weep for 2 guns?

 

[2Biz]

Another good tip to was to use at least 1/4" ID hose out to the bays. I had 1/8 on my triple foam and switching to 1/4 was a huge improvement.

Don't get confused on tubing size. LLDPE is measured from the OD, not the ID...3/8 tubing has an ID of .25...I run 3/8 LLDPE on all PS and TF fluid and air lines to the bays....I get by using 1/4" on the FB since it only uses about 20oz a minute flow. PS and TF uses about 60-80oz a minute...

Good to see somebody benefitting from some of the things I post!

BTW, I winterize all LP systems with washer fluid and air...I have only used about 25 gallons of WF this winter. That is through 8 hoses...FB and Foam Gun....I saved more in the first year with the system than what it would have cost to weep 8 hoses...

 

[Scottyk]

Don't get confused on tubing size. LLDPE is measured from the OD, not the ID...3/8 tubing has an ID of .25...I run 3/8 LLDPE on all PS and TF fluid and air lines to the bays....I get by using 1/4" on the FB since it only uses about 20oz a minute flow. PS and TF uses about 60-80oz a minute...

Good to see somebody benefitting from some of the things I post!

BTW, I winterize all LP systems with washer fluid and air...I have only used about 25 gallons of WF this winter. That is through 8 hoses...FB and Foam Gun....I saved more in the first year with the system than what it would have cost to weep 8 hoses...

When you say your winterize it, for me as a newbie it sounds like you are flushing the lines out and not using it in the winter? Or are you mixing washerfluid in with the soap?

 

[2Biz]

I designed my own winterizing system using PLC's, washer fluid and air. At 32°, the system actives and blows bay 1 foam gun out for 10 seconds, then injects 5 seconds of washer fluid using a flojet, and then another blast of air for 10 seconds. It runs the same cycle until all 8 hoses are done. Then it waits until someone uses one of the services, it waits 5 seconds and only winterizes that service or hose. When temp goes above 32°, the system disarms...

I started a thread a few years back on the subject...There is a good photo at post 75 of the PLC's I use and the solenoids/flojet...

http://www.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?8291-Programmable-Relay-or-PLC/page8&highlight=relay

 

[Greg Pack]

I have to disagree that high pressure soap doesn't clean. I've both seen and operated washes where high pressure alone will remove enough grime that it looks clean.

Got any brand recommendations?

 

[MEP001]

I ran a very dirty white van through a D&S 5000 the other day and it got it quite clean - they're using Scotch Plaid's Premium Blend powdered soap mixed in a 55 gallon drum which then draws into the various tanks.

 

[Greg Pack]

Thanks, Any experience mixing this? If so, How much powder can you put in a 55 gallon drum and it stay in solution?

 

[MEP001]

50 lbs. in 50 gallons will stay in solution, they recommend 2-3 lbs per 5 gallons.

I mixed some to try on a Vector as a presoak, but the PulsaFeeder pumps couldn't draw enough to work.