Wiring Diagram typical self serve?

[Haines]

Does anyone have a typical self serve wiring diagram? I am trying to simplify the controls from the overly complex system I have now.

I have this diagram:

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/imag...stand wiring/2 bay three phase pump stand.pdf

And this one:

http://www.bcoweb.com/photos/8+pos+dix.pdf

But for some reason am having trouble wrapping my brain around integrating the two.

I will not be using a three way valve as called for in the first diagram, but rather a cold water (city water) rinse. My pump stand is actually three rather than two pumps as well.

A complete diagram showing integration would be great if there were one out there someone would be willing to share.

Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

IMO the easiest way to wire things is to just line everything out on a terminal strip. I start with the functions as they are in order on the switch with the motor contactor right after, then any functions such as manual washdown, timed load or coin signal to/from the bay, then hot and common. Then I pick wire colors for everything, write them down and hook everything up. I've wired, rewired, refurbished and completely gutted and restrung probably 100 washes without any wiring diagrams. There's no need for two terminal strips in the bay box, just one there and one in the electrical cabinet for each bay. It also doesn't matter how many bays are in the cabinet if they don't share a transformer because everything remains separate.

Those wiring diagrams are not very good. The one for the bay box has the white wire from the Dixmor (misspelled) connected to the rotary switch, but then a yellow wire from there back to the terminal strip. Why not use the same color wire? Why run the timed load back to the ER? Then they have the hot to the coin acceptor and the heater on another terminal strip without indicating sufficiently that the red 24V hot is jumpered to it? And why would you use all the same color wires to the rotary switch? It would make life so much easier to label the functions at the strip and color-code them.

 

[gee gee]

I have the diagrams from the original electrical panels that use color to display connections from equipment room to the bay timer, etc. The equipment is Dilling-Harris... Ginsan. If this is what your looking for, let me know and I'll send pics.

 

[OurTown]

Why run the timed load back to the ER?

Our setup has a timer indicator light on the pump stand and it is fed to a PLC that keeps track of bay time.

 

[Haines]

gee gee-- Is your equipment set up with a display in the bay, but the actual time is controlled in the ER? If so I am actually trying to get away from that, as that is what I have now. I want to use the Dixmor LED 7 timers.

MEP--
Why do you run each bay with it's own transformer?

I figured they ran a timed load from\to the ER so that like Our Town said it could be to keep track of bay time OR to be used as a washdown switch from the ER? Maybe this is wrong?


Completely agree on the wire color being different. That's dumb not to. My wiring in place is multi colored so that's not an issue.

When you are using a Procon for your Presoak, do you use one stack to control the motor starter and the other stack to control the specific bay solenoid? Same with the SFR pump and bay solenoids?

Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

FWIW I've redone a number of washes to eliminate the GinSan timers and pushbuttons and replaced it with rotary switch and Dixmor timers. I find it to be very easy, although I've been doing this for 36 years and have worked on some 500 different washes.

You can run multiple bays with one large transformer, but I don't like to. If that one transformer fails, you're completely down until you can get another, and they're not easy to find. With a 100Va transformer per bay you can scavenge off the next bay temporarily if you have to, and just about every car wash supply place carries them.

95% of washes I've worked on have no need for the timed load to go back to the room, especially with a Dixmor timer since you can enable washdown in the bay with the remote. To me it's just complicating the wiring for something you're unlikely to use.

When you have a common pump for multiple bays, there's a controller that turns on the motor. You do use one stack for the high pressure pump motor and the other just opens solenoids.

 

[Haines]

You do use one stack for the high pressure pump motor and the other just opens solenoids.

That was what I was having trouble wrapping my mind around. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to keep it from back feeding to the other bays when someone had it selected in another bay. I was trying to figure out a diode or relay solution and figured that couldn't be right.


My setup now uses both AC and DC for different functions. Why it isn't all 24VAC is beyond me.

Thanks!

 

[Haines]

Do you put an hour meter in the system like the diagram shows? Or an impulse counter?

 

[MEP001]

The equipment I've built has an hour meter, only for the pump motor.

I'm guessing you have a setup like this:

He couldn't get into the controller to change the time or startup price, and the manufacturer had no support at all. I gutted all the 24VDC stuff and went straight from the switch to the solenoids.

The relays on the bottom left are jumpered together in sets of five, one for each low-pressure pump. It was cheaper than a controller and they should last forever since there's no real load on them.

 

[Haines]

Bingo! That is almost exactly like what I have. Unfortunately, mine is even more complex because there used to be an auto in the mix. Boy that sure is a little bit cleaner.

The relays on the bottom left are jumpered together in sets of five, one for each low-pressure pump. It was cheaper than a controller and they should last forever since there's no real load on them.

You are using relays as a motor starter for the smaller low pressure motors? Why a relay for each bay? Because it will back feed to other bays and be active when it is selected in another bay?

Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

That's why a relay for each bay, you can't interconnect 24V AC or all the solenoids will open and you can't use diodes on AC. Each relay is supplied with 24V AC to the normally open and the coil gets energized with the selection so each bay function stays isolated from the rest. There are controllers such as the IDX MX-8, but they're expensive and don't last forever.

This wash pictured had two autos, which is where the controller was for changing the bay time and coins to start. It also had another box controlling all the vacs, and he had already gutted it and replaced everything with standard vacuum timers.

 

[Haines]

thanks for the info. I think I've got an idea of how to lay it out.

Any particular relay you like?

Other tips or things I should include in the wiring?

Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

https://www.zoro.com/omron-plug-in-relay-5-pins-square-24vac-g2r-1-s-ac24s/i/G3255016/

https://www.zoro.com/omron-relay-socket-elevator-square-5-pin-10a-p2rf-05-e/i/G2778246/

$7.89 a set if you use code MEMDAY2 at checkout for a 20% discount. I usually get them at mouser.com with a substantial quantity discount but it ended up cheaper from Zoro.

 

[Haines]

Hey MEP-

I follow you on the relay for each function for the bay, but why did you need 5 relays per bay? You only need the relay to isolate “shared” functions (solenoid for FB Flojet, contactor for Procon for PS, contactor for pump for SF), correct? The soap and wax for each bay aren’t shared so can’t I use the second stack of the rotary switch to turn on those solenoids? Maybe I’m missing something...? Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

This one had tire cleaner, presoak, foam brush, trifoam wax, and spot-free. Each had its own pump.

If you got your rotary switches from Kleen-Rite, you should use the first stack for the solenoids and the second for the motor. They order them with the second layer make-before-break so if you have two high-pressure selections side by side the motor won't cut out briefly switching between them.

 

[Haines]

Right on, thanks!

 

[I.B. Washincars]

If you got your rotary switches from Kleen-Rite, you should use the first stack for the solenoids and the second for the motor. They order them with the second layer make-before-break so if you have two high-pressure selections side by side the motor won't cut out briefly switching between them.

In the immortal words of Johnny Carson, “I did not know that.”

 

[mjwalsh]

Haines & others,

MEP001 is correct in his approach to rotary switch wiring. I will say that our recent reliable experience with menu style buttons with GinSan makes the cutting out of the hi pressure pump motor also a non issue & somewhat moot. I guess the key is if those types of "more convenient user friendly durable menu buttons IMHO for the customer". I know the earlier systems were not worth the extra cost ... most because of lack of durability & ong term cost of repairs. Nowadays in 2018 if the increased reliability of the distribution boards are maintained I see the extremely tough menu buttons as an alternative for some of us.

 

[2Biz]

In the immortal words of Johnny Carson, “I did not know that.”

This has been discussed on here many times....Where ya been?!

 

[I.B. Washincars]

This has been discussed on here many times....Where ya been?!

Apparently, at lunch...