Questions about using a PLC for various tasks

[OurTown]

Our 2003 built wash has two separate Omron PLC setups. Currently one is used only to control our fixed oval touchless auto. The other one is used for controlling weeps and data capture for self serve bay and vac usage. It also used to control another auto. There is a Maple Systems interface with a small LCD screen for each. Our auto is going to be replaced with a new machine so we will have a spare PLC setup. We were considering moving that spare to another area and using it for a few different things such as a blowdown/antifreeze controller and a triple foam controller. The Omron model number is CQM1H-CPU21. We do not have programming software or a cable but it appears that we can get both of those for about $200. Omron has free online training courses. Here are our questions:

1. Is this an antiquated Omron model or does that matter?
2. What would it take to remote access it for monitoring?
3. Would it be better to go with another brand?
4. Is anything else needed for a complete setup besides PLC, I/O modules, power supply, rack/enclosure, programming software, cable, laptop computer for programming/uploading/downloading programs?

 

[OurTown]

Nothing after two weeks? Okay. Forget about the Omron specific questions. What do you guys use and why did you pick that brand or model. Are you able to access it remotely?

 

[JGinther]

I would stay away from putting in all that time just to save the cost of a processor. What you are looking to do doesn't require very much i/o, and a new unit with all sorts of cool options can be purchased for pretty cheap. I have several setups using simple smart relays for doing the stuff you mentioned. But have also used 1 plc to run a full 6 bay self serve with all options using binary encoded rotary switches (only 4 inputs per bay) and then being able to make a smart weepless system with remote access with text alerts, revenue reports and remote turn on/washdown ability. The problem is that the more custom you make everything, the more you are stuck with the car wash! I like idec because of price/software+capability ratio. I have made more complicated machines with allen-bradley, and mitsubishi, but wouldn't recommend it unless you are looking to sell to public and need direct support at high expense.

 

[OurTown]

I would stay away from putting in all that time just to save the cost of a processor.

Thanks. That's the feedback I was looking for.

I have several setups using simple smart relays for doing the stuff you mentioned.

I have looked at those and they don't seem a whole lot less expensive. I assume they are they easier to program or not require any extra software. We had one that controlled a powdered presoak mixer and we modified the program easily but it was a very simple relay.

I like idec because of price/software+capability ratio.

I'll look into them.

 

[2Biz]

I started a thread back in 2011 on PLC or PLR uses at the CW and how to program....Here is the thread...

http://www.autocareforum.com/showthread.php?8291-Programmable-Relay-or-PLC&highlight=programmable

See post 75 for my first attempt at making a Winterizing system for my Foam Guns and FB's for a 4 bay....It uses -22° washer fluid and air to winterize the 8 hoses. It has literally saved me thousands a year in water down the drain since I installed it....Its worked flawlessly since installation...


I like the Idec brand PLC/PLR, same as JGinther....The older FL1E had a 200 Function Block capacity and the newer FL1F has a 400 FB Capacity with an additional Astronomical FB that can be used for lighting projects! (Which I'm currently working on!) The nice thing about the newer FL1F is it can be loaded with either a Micro SD card or by Ethernet....You don't need the $70 cable like the older FL1E used...The software, WindLGC, is free to download. But costs less than $100 in order to transfer files. The FL1F 24vac base module Costs $158 but can also be purchased with the full version software for $200....The 24vac Expansion module is $66 @ WolfAutomation.com ....Pretty cheap to get started into using PLC's at the CW!

 

[2Biz]

Current Lighting Project during testing phase to check program and logic.....

 

[wash4me]

Personally I like allen bradley from ebay. It's easy to find someone else to program it and there are a few different local plc guys that can support it if needed. It's been a couple years but the micrologix 1000 had free software and was 100-250 on ebay. If you want a touchscreen automation direct click plc is good. Like others have said you are choosing to put resources into something the potential buyer will think they can't maintain so sometimes buying a product that already exists has its benefits.

 

[OurTown]

I started a thread back in 2011 on PLC or PLR uses at the CW and how to program....Here is the thread...

http://www.autocareforum.com/showthr...t=programmable

See post 75 for my first attempt at making a Winterizing system for my Foam Guns and FB's for a 4 bay....It uses -22° washer fluid and air to winterize the 8 hoses. It has literally saved me thousands a year in water down the drain since I installed it....Its worked flawlessly since installation...

I read that awhile back and that is one of the projects we have in mind.

Personally I like allen bradley from ebay. It's easy to find someone else to program it and there are a few different local plc guys that can support it if needed.

If we were going to make a blow down/antifreeze system I would rather be able to modify the program myself because of the possibility of needing multiple tweaks.

Like others have said you are choosing to put resources into something the potential buyer will think they can't maintain so sometimes buying a product that already exists has its benefits.

We are not overlooking the idea of just buying a factory system. It definitely has its merits but I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say a potential buyer might think they couldn't maintain it. Is it because it would be custom and not have an factory operator manual?

 

[wash4me]

With allen bradley if you stick with their lower level stuff you can get free software. Yes, no owners manual is intimidating. Even you will forget exactly how it works and have to relook at the program if it's very complicated.

 

[OurTown]

With allen bradley if you stick with their lower level stuff you can get free software.

I'll look into that brand also.

Yes, no owners manual is intimidating. Even you will forget exactly how it works and have to relook at the program if it's very complicated.

It would be smart to at least write some sort of a basic manual.

Does anyone use one for capturing time on self serve? We have that now but we want to change the vacs to record minutes used instead of just recording cycles. That is where this idea all started from.

 

[2Biz]

Like others have said you are choosing to put resources into something the potential buyer will think they can't maintain so sometimes buying a product that already exists has its benefits.

I have given similar thought, but hoping that when/if I get ready to sell, the potential buyer will have the same interest as I did while seeing the value of creating systems that save you $$$. The 8 LP hose Washer Fluid Air blowdown system cost me roughly $1500 including the PLC's, Expansion Mods, solenoids, flojet, and all tubing/fittings. A similar off the shelf system would be 4-5 times $$$ that...

Computer and cell phones are bridging the Knowledge Gap we had years ago...I found learning the software is no harder than learning any Microsoft Program...

As for the lighting project, there is no "Off the shelf" system that will do what I want it to do. So customizing it was my only option. 100% of the lights come on based on the Astronomical FB (Latitude/Longitude of CW). Each zone (8 zones - outputs) turns on .5 seconds apart minimizing inrush current. 2/3 of all lights will turn off at 10-11pm and leave (4) security bulbs on in each bay. If someone puts $$$ in a coin box, when the timer starts the remaining 2/3 of the lights in that bay illuminate. After time runs out, there is a 5 minute delay to turn off 2/3's of the bulbs in that bay. Fixtures are 4' (3) Led bulb IP67 rated....(4) fixtures for each bay. Going with LED and the custom program/hardware will pay for itself in about a year over the cost of running CFL's. Then its money in the bank.

 

[cantbreak80]

How in the world did you come up with that crazy concept?

 

[2Biz]

An old Friend planted the seed! I'm surprised you didn't ask why it took me so long to get started on the project?!?! Glad to see you are still lurking around!

Funny story...After putting the panel together and firing up the Idec, it took me about 6-8 hours just to get the program to load...Kept getting an error in WindLGC during the transfer…. Tried loading the program using a MicroSD card....No go...The program seemed to work flawlessly in WindLGC...Thought I had a communication issue....Checked the connection all the way down to "Pinging" the PLC....It definitely had me scratching my head...

The issue turned out being "Open Output" Message Text Function Blocks. Finding the Open Connector FB clearly says it closes the open Message Text Block....Who would have known?!?! I didn't find anything in the 339 page manual that said this could be an issue. It was telling me all along in the Info Window there were errors in the Ladder! But had to look at it first!

I hope you are having a Great Retirement!

 

[wash4me]

I am impressed. I use the eze controller with an astronomic program to turn the lights on and off and then half of my lights stay on after midnight until morning.

 

[pgrzes]

I use a few Omron Zen plc's. I use one for my bays, I have a light over each selector box in each bay that turns off and on with a plain intermatic timer. Then 3 other lights in each bay that are programmed on the zen to come on with the bay timer and stay on for 10 minutes after timer shuts off for courtesy time.

I used another zen to make a vac it up system, when a timer is running every 4 1/2 minutes the vac motors and a gate open to dry in coins, I am looking to change this to read just the coins dropped some how, I couldnt get a coin pulse to read on a relay.

Then we have another zen on our automatic for lights. 2 lights in the bay are always on, when someone pays for a wash the other 8 lights in the bay come on for 15 minutes, we went with this time for busier days the lights are not always turning off and on. I had someone I know do the programming on the units for me, I wish I knew more about these units to do my own work with these things. They have had no problems since in service for 6 or 7 years.

 

[OurTown]

I'm liking the idea of having several smaller (less expensive) PLCs or smart relays with their own tasks instead of having one big mastermind expensive PLC. That way when one croaks your whole wash is not shut down. Plus logistics of wiring could be better because they might be closer to the controlled devise.

 

[JGinther]

The main thing to consider when deciding to go centralized with single controller is that most high input/output count PLCs don't have a 24 VAC option for inputs. Only 24 VDC and, to get 32 point outputs - only transistor output is option and not relay output. This means you either have to have a rectifier bank for relay bank to switch the inputs to a voltage the PLC can see. The smaller smart relay type modules have pretty much any voltage as options for inputs or outputs and even processor power. A spare PLC can be replaced within only a couple minutes, so as long as you keep a 2nd of each part, risk of downtime isn't really a concern. But to a buyer... different story.

 

[MEP001]

The main thing to consider when deciding to go centralized with single controller is that most high input/output count PLCs don't have a 24 VAC option for inputs. Only 24 VDC and, to get 32 point outputs - only transistor output is option and not relay output. This means you either have to have a rectifier bank for relay bank to switch the inputs to a voltage the PLC can see. The smaller smart relay type modules have pretty much any voltage as options for inputs or outputs and even processor power. A spare PLC can be replaced within only a couple minutes, so as long as you keep a 2nd of each part, risk of downtime isn't really a concern. But to a buyer... different story.

Exactly why I've had to pull out thousands of dollars of PLC's and relays in two different washes, because the company that designed the equipment doesn't support it or the hardware is obsolete.

 

[chaz]

Ok. Here’s my question....I currently have a markvii GT-700. I’ve been using the wash alert system that basically plugs into the CMI port of the PLC...it sends me error messages through a dial up modem....well it used to. The system is down, and I’m looking at options to have a system send me a text and or email. I’m not very handy in this area....any thoughts and or tech folk that could design such an item......??????

 

[JGinther]

Since its communicating through the CMI port, it is a protected part of the actual program of the Mark VII mitsubishi controller. Without a rewrite, which is totally senseless, or having mark VII edit their software to output different data that can be sent through IP, you are pretty much stuck. However, I think you mentioned you have a DAN system - which will do exactly what you want as far as messaging, you just would only get this message when the machine went down. You would not know what the problem is, but it would text you and let you know right when it happened that the "equipment is not ready" or "car wash closed". No parts needed at all...