Water is 25 grains hard, should I use soft water for all functions?
- Thread starter APW
- Start date
soapy
Senior Member
Hard water is fine for the rinse cycles with no added chemicals. You will loose your shirt if you try to use all soft water. Spotfree rinse will need to be soft first then through your RO
Here is what we have been doing for quite a while now. First off, 25 grains is really hard. Use the soft water to mix all of the chemicals and to feed the spot free unit. If this is city water you will also need a charcoal prefilter to the RO unit to remove the chlorine that the city puts in. For the softener I recommend a single tank unit with a metered head, as opposed to one that regenerates from a clock. The softener should be around $700 to $800 and the charcoal unit will be slightly under that. If you are going to get quotes from someone local tell them that your maximum flow will be around 10 gallons per minute.
I've already installed a alternating twin 2" fleck system. I've got all chemicals on SS and IBA plus my RO on soft water with a carbon tank. I was just thinking with the water being so hard if I should plumb the high pressure on SS and the IBA with soft water. Didn't know if soft water would help with the longevity of the pumps.
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
APW,
Since 1968 we have always maintained soft water for all of our initial 3 bay & now 6 bay self service for all the functions including rinse. I wonder if Soapy has actually calculated the additional cost for the extra salt for more regenerations with rinse included. I do agree that bypassing the softener for our laundromat rinses, toilet use, & sink use was wise though. I really do believe it has helped our Cat 310 pumps by having only soft water going through them.
We have a dual Fleck Softeners with 1 brine tank setup. On hot summer days, we cool the laundromat & dog wash with city water going through fans attached to copper exchangers. That water that flows there on its way to the domestic hot water (now pre-heated) is also soft. Definitely we have all to spot free rinse RO water we have soft like Soap & most others say & know from experience for the life of the membranes.
With that much hardness ... my guess is that in the long term you are better off & less likely to lose your shirt by routing even your rinse water as soft.
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PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
OK I'll go look up some numbers...
My actual cost to operate my softener is around $4 per regeneration, once per day average year round. (Yes that can mean 4 or 5 regens on those weekends we all pray for.)
Fleck 9000 dual reciprocating unit, 68,000 grain tanks.
Note: small rural self serve, all water is softened.
Thats a quickie calculation based on my fully loaded actual water + sewer cost, measured water hardness (25 grains), daily average water usage, actual cost of salt, estimating 120 gallons per regen. I'd have to check, but I think I set mine to use the recommended 75% of resin capacity.
I've always intended to have the rinse & washdown water bypass the softener, but for the savings I just never get around to it. I suppose that if I saved half of my softening costs, that would be maybe $5-600 /year? OK soapy, maybe I should get around to it
Yeah, with an IBA I'd definitely bypass the softener for the rinse cycles.
My actual cost to operate my softener is around $4 per regeneration, once per day average year round. (Yes that can mean 4 or 5 regens on those weekends we all pray for.)
Fleck 9000 dual reciprocating unit, 68,000 grain tanks.
Note: small rural self serve, all water is softened.
Thats a quickie calculation based on my fully loaded actual water + sewer cost, measured water hardness (25 grains), daily average water usage, actual cost of salt, estimating 120 gallons per regen. I'd have to check, but I think I set mine to use the recommended 75% of resin capacity.
I've always intended to have the rinse & washdown water bypass the softener, but for the savings I just never get around to it. I suppose that if I saved half of my softening costs, that would be maybe $5-600 /year? OK soapy, maybe I should get around to it
Yeah, with an IBA I'd definitely bypass the softener for the rinse cycles.
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PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
btw, this is a timely thread - my softener caused a severe water pressure drop this weekend, I think its been 10 years since I replaced the resin, so bad on me - I'm betting that was my cause. But the softener control head is somewhere between 30 and 40 years old, so...
Considering a new unit, or just replacing the control head & resin. Currently bypassing the softener, checking prices this week.
(fyi one of my tanks has a patched leak that started leaking again last week, hence considering a new unit.)
Yes, bypassing the softener makes a significant noticeable difference in the soap cycles. I should really tweak up my soap until I get the softener project done.
Considering a new unit, or just replacing the control head & resin. Currently bypassing the softener, checking prices this week.
(fyi one of my tanks has a patched leak that started leaking again last week, hence considering a new unit.)
Yes, bypassing the softener makes a significant noticeable difference in the soap cycles. I should really tweak up my soap until I get the softener project done.
soapy
Senior Member
MY water is 20 grains of hardness. I have 2- 300,000 grain softner tanks at 2 locations and 2-100,000 grain tanks at another. It is not unusual for me to use 250,000 gallons or more per month per location. I soften all the water except the high pressure rinse in the SS bays and the HP rinse in my touchless automatics. It would help if everyone would post what water hardness they are dealing with as this is the only way to compare cost to soften the water.
br549ms
Member
I am guessing by using grains to measure hardness, you guys are simply taking the ppm in TDS and dividing by 17.1 to get grains? is this correct? let assume your city water is 300 ppm with a TDS meter, 300 / 17.1 = 17.5 grains. My issue is the TDS may be comprised of other solids besides lime or calcium. Are you actually checking Calcium levels?
Water "hardness" refers to the level of unwanted minerals, principally calcium and magnesium, found in your water supply.
Water hardness is measured in "grains" per gallon, in milligrams of calcium (Ca) per liter, or water hardness may be expressed in ppm - parts per million.
Table of Degrees of Water Hardness
Soft water 0-17.1 mg/L of minerals
Slightly hard water 16.1-60 mg/L of minerals
Moderately hard water 61-120 mg/L of minerals
Hard water 121-180 mg/L of minerals
Very hard water more than 180 mg/L of minerals
- adapted from web search Wikipedia 01/31/2011
Water "hardness" refers to the level of unwanted minerals, principally calcium and magnesium, found in your water supply.
Water hardness is measured in "grains" per gallon, in milligrams of calcium (Ca) per liter, or water hardness may be expressed in ppm - parts per million.
Table of Degrees of Water Hardness
Soft water 0-17.1 mg/L of minerals
Slightly hard water 16.1-60 mg/L of minerals
Moderately hard water 61-120 mg/L of minerals
Hard water 121-180 mg/L of minerals
Very hard water more than 180 mg/L of minerals
- adapted from web search Wikipedia 01/31/2011
MEP001
Well-known member
The testing of "grains per gallon" is usually just measuring the magnesium and calcium that the softener needs to remove. PPM calculation isn't accurate because even softened water showing zero grains can have a high PPM count.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
to expand a little on what MEP says, Mg and Ca are the typical measures of hardness, usually measured in grains. These are the big ones for a car wash, because they have a significant effect on soap usage and effectiveness, therefore on how clean the car gets.
I've used multiple test kits over the years, lately I'm just using (once a month or so) the Hach hardness test strips from Amazn, around $10. They are accurate enough to know if Im in the ballpark or if I have a problem to deal with, takes all of 30 seconds to do a test. I also check the tds from my SFR regularly, again, so I know if I have a problem. I have the little battery powered tds meter for that, I think KR sells them?
If you want more accurate, like to set/adjust your softener settings, get one of the "drop test kits".
edit... yeah, OK, I read too fast, I think I'm answering a question you didnt ask. Sorry.
I've used multiple test kits over the years, lately I'm just using (once a month or so) the Hach hardness test strips from Amazn, around $10. They are accurate enough to know if Im in the ballpark or if I have a problem to deal with, takes all of 30 seconds to do a test. I also check the tds from my SFR regularly, again, so I know if I have a problem. I have the little battery powered tds meter for that, I think KR sells them?
If you want more accurate, like to set/adjust your softener settings, get one of the "drop test kits".
edit... yeah, OK, I read too fast, I think I'm answering a question you didnt ask. Sorry.
OurTown
Well-known member
This is what we use and check it everyday:
https://www.amazon.com/Hach-145300-Total-Hardness-Model/dp/B008FM7WLU
Currently everything is softened at our wash except the outside hose bib, bathroom sink and toilet.
https://www.amazon.com/Hach-145300-Total-Hardness-Model/dp/B008FM7WLU
Currently everything is softened at our wash except the outside hose bib, bathroom sink and toilet.
MEP001
Well-known member
I like seeing someone else who checks their soft water every day. It's a really good idea because it will help you catch problems early, for example if you have a twin alternating softener and one side has the resin break down and fail early, you'll know because the water will start showing hard before that side regenerates.
Checking for chlorine in the RO reject is also good maintenance. Most kits are meant for checking pools and spas and don't read small amounts in supply water, but chlorine will be concentrated in the RO's reject and will show up more easily.
Checking for chlorine in the RO reject is also good maintenance. Most kits are meant for checking pools and spas and don't read small amounts in supply water, but chlorine will be concentrated in the RO's reject and will show up more easily.