Softener and Filtration Costs

[Noob]

Good afternoon Guys, I hope everyone is doing well. I have some questions about softeners and filtration. I understand that softeners are a vital piece of equipment both for chemical costs and the life of your equipment. I currently do not have a softener but am in the process of getting some quotes. My first question is does everyone also filter their water before they soften? One company is trying to sell me on a softener as well a filtration system with automatic backflushing. The salesman that came out tested the water and said that a softener by itself was not sufficient. Is this common? I do know that our water is extremely hard and full of calcium, lime, algae, etc.

My second question is does anyone lease this equipment? If so, do you mind to share with me what you are paying? Thanks!

 

[MEP001]

Leasing a softener has its pros and cons. Main pro: as long as it's a reputable company you never have to worry about your softener. Main con: it's going to cost you more to lease it. A good softener will last 20-30 years, it's not like a car lease where you need a new one every two or three for it to be reliable.

 

[mac]

If you are on city water you most likely do not need a filter before the softener. And only use the soft water for chemical mixing and spot free. You should be able to get a softener for around $800. I like a single tank with a metered head.

 

[MEP001]

My first question is does everyone also filter their water before they soften? One company is trying to sell me on a softener as well a filtration system with automatic backflushing. The salesman that came out tested the water and said that a softener by itself was not sufficient. Is this common?

The most filtration I've ever seen before a softener is a simple whole house filter. What kind of pre-filtration are they trying to sell you and why? Sounds like he's trying to scam you. I talked to someone recently who almost got scammed for an entire RO system. He was quoted $7,000 to replace a unit that only cost $3,000 new when it was installed, and he doesn't have an auto bay anymore so he only needed 1/4 of what he had. Supposedly an expert was brought in and determined it needed to be replaced - I went and looked at it, and all it needed was a relay for the delivery motor, $100 and it works perfectly.

 

[Noob]

Thanks for the response guys. My understanding is that we were going to filter and soften all of the water through the wash. I know this will increase the cost of salt but will increase the life of my equipment in the long term? The quote that I received included cvac-1054 auto backlashing filtration system, a 2100 on demand non electric twin tank water softener, and a 20 micron pleated filter. The quote I received was $175 a month for the equipment and service of the equipment. The only thing I would be responsible for would be the salt. The terms of the lease is 60 months. So over the term of the lease I would be paying them $10,500.

 

[Noob]

I should also say that the rep told me that I would be using 1 bag of salt every 3-6 weeks.

 

[Randy]

The quote I received was $175 a month for the equipment and service of the equipment. The only thing I would be responsible for would be the salt. The terms of the lease is 60 months. So over the term of the lease I would be paying them $10,500.

How long do you plan on keeping the car wash? How much would the system cost if you bought outright?

 

[pgrzes]

How much are they charging you for salt per bag? You dont tell us what type wash, are you using spot free? Iba, ss, tunnel, etc. I cant see many washes using only a bag every 3 - 6 weeks, unless your water is fairly soft all-ready. Call Doug at Ginsan and explain to him what you are looking to do. He is very good with water treatment for carwashes.

 

[OurTown]

What is the hardness of your water and what is your monthly water usage?

 

[mac]

Reread my post. Softening all the water will not increase equipment life. That sales rep is screwing you and I'll bet you are not even getting kissed afterward. Using a twin tank means you have to go with a larger capacity softener because when one side regenerates it uses soft water from the other. Single tank with a metered head is all you need. That will save you over $9,000. Use that money to take the wife on a cruise.

 

[chaz]

Reread my post. Softening all the water will not increase equipment life. That sales rep is screwing you and I'll bet you are not even getting kissed afterward. Using a twin tank means you have to go with a larger capacity softener because when one side regenerates it uses soft water from the other. Single tank with a metered head is all you need. That will save you over $9,000. Use that money to take the wife on a cruise.

So when the single tank does a regen...do you shut down or use hard water.?

 

[MEP001]

Single tanks bypass hard water while they regenerate. Even if it's on a meter it's timered to regenerate at 2 am when you won't likely have any customers. You can also add a pretreatment interlock to prevent your RO system from running while the softener regenerates.

Single tank systems are fine, but twin tank systems are more efficient and will supply soft water 100% of the time. With a single tank you either have to oversize it and waste water and salt or have it run hard before it regenerates.

You can get a Fleck 1 1/2" twin 120,000 grain softener for $3500.

 

[mac]

Well mep you seem to have gotten this wrong again. "Single tank systems are fine, but twin tank systems are more efficient and will supply soft water 100% of the time. With a single tank you either have to oversize it and waste water and salt or have it run hard before it regenerates." It is just the opposite. A single tank does regen at night as you stated at 2 AM when most likely no one is there. It does not require a bigger tank. A twin tank when it regenerates uses soft water from the fresh tank, so it needs to be larger, usually around 20%. So your recommendation is for this person to spend $3,500 instead of $800.

 

[MEP001]

Well mep you seem to have gotten this wrong again.

You're entitled to your opinion.

A single tank softener also needs to be larger, for a very busy wash it would have to be significantly oversized, to supply soft water all day. In the long run the savings on salt and water will pay for the extra cost of a twin tank system. You're also talking about the difference between a $3500 softener that I recommended for softening all water vs. an $800 softener that you recommended to soften just chemical tank fill and RO. If I were to recommend a twin softener just for chems and RO, it would only be $1200.

 

[mac]

mep I don't have any idea where you learned about softeners. Or thought you learned about them. A typical twin tank system uses a head that alternates the usage between the two tanks. Let me put that in simpler terms. It only uses ONE tank at a time. So a single tank of the size of one would supply the soft water. Softeners are sized by the flow rate needed for maximum usage when the place is rocking. So if you let's say have a touchless auto and 5 self serve bays, and your RO is running all at the same time, your max flow rate could easily be around 80 or 90 gallons per minute. That would require a tank roughly 18" in diameter and maybe 6 feet tall. I am suggesting just using the soft water to mix your chemicals and feed the RO. That max flow rate would be closer to 20 gallons per minute. Unless you have rocks in your water that is just wasting a whole lot of time, energy, and salt. So your way costs thousands more, requires you to buy salt by the pallet, and normally does nothing to improve wash effectiveness or equipment life. And you still don't seem to understand my point about twin alternating tanks needing to be larger than needed for the max flow rate, When one side is regenerating it uses the soft water from the tank in use, and that could easily be another 20 gallons per minute. Since you never, ever admit you are wrong, I am just done with this conversation. Mainly because you bore me.

 

[OurTown]

Mac are you saying that on self serve bays you would set it up so that on the HP soap selection hard high pressure water mixes with the soft water soap mix from the hydrominder tank?

 

[MEP001]

Mac are you saying that on self serve bays you would set it up so that on the HP soap selection hard high pressure water mixes with the soft water soap mix from the hydrominder tank?

I certainly wouldn't run hard water to a boiler or water heater. The only thing I'd run hard on a car wash would be undercarriage/rocker blasters and high pressure passes on touchless. IMO everything else should be softened, including self-serve rinse.

 

[MEP001]

mep I don't have any idea where you learned about softeners. Or thought you learned about them.

I learned from professionals, a Fleck distributor, lots of reading, research and studying the manuals, and 36 years of service in the car wash industry.

A typical twin tank system uses a head that alternates the usage between the two tanks. Let me put that in simpler terms. It only uses ONE tank at a time. So a single tank of the size of one would supply the soft water.

I'm very aware of all this, assuming you're referring to a twin tank system with a single head.

Softeners are sized by the flow rate needed for maximum usage when the place is rocking. So if you let's say have a touchless auto and 5 self serve bays, and your RO is running all at the same time, your max flow rate could easily be around 80 or 90 gallons per minute. That would require a tank roughly 18" in diameter and maybe 6 feet tall. I am suggesting just using the soft water to mix your chemicals and feed the RO. That max flow rate would be closer to 20 gallons per minute. Unless you have rocks in your water that is just wasting a whole lot of time, energy, and salt. So your way costs thousands more, requires you to buy salt by the pallet, and normally does nothing to improve wash effectiveness or equipment life. And you still don't seem to understand my point about twin alternating tanks needing to be larger than needed for the max flow rate, When one side is regenerating it uses the soft water from the tank in use, and that could easily be another 20 gallons per minute.

Using softened water only for chemicals and RO is fine for a touchless auto, but for a self-serve (which happens to be the subject of this post) you would have to feed a boiler or heater with hard water which would cause scale buildup, as well as defeat the purpose of mixing chemicals with soft water since 95% of the high pressure is water from a tank. Also, I never said anything about using a twin alternating single-head softener for flow rates of 80-90 gallons per minute. A Fleck 9500 has a peak flow of half that. One would have to use a Fleck 2900 remote metered system for that demand, which can be had for around $4,500, and doesn't use soft water from the tank in service to regenerate the tank in standby. FWIW, the tank size for a flow of 80-90 GPM would have to be 30 x 72" or larger.

 

[JGinther]

So, noob... As you can tell from this discussion, both single and dual tank softeners are bad, and neither are efficient. This forum is very good in that if you are having a hard time deciding between a or b, you will find out d is your only option, even though it's what you already probably have. Welcome to The forum. Here... Have some hard water.