Weep adjustment driving us crazy

[2Biz]

Do most washes have this hot water weep feature?

I've heard of some operators weeping heated water, but it has always left me scratching my head, wondering why
??? I only weep cold unsoftened water and can't remember the last time I had an issue, tested to -16°.


Where is the swing check located in the system? Wondering why its in there if you have checks at the pump? I have 1/4" LLDPE tubing from the pump checks to the needle valves. If ever a CV fails, HP will blow the 1/4" tubing so there is no danger of backflow past the needle valves. I'm wondering if that's why you have the swing checks? Since you say the needle valves are attached to the checks. A secondary safety backflow? But a swing check? Another possible failure point.

 

[2Biz]

I'm not sure at what temp it stops pulsing and runs all the time but last winter it seemed to happen a lot here. That is a lot of water if we were not careful about it weeping too much. When it gets really cold this year we will probably shut down a bay or maybe two if it is insane cold.

If you are using a weepmiser, it is on 100% of the time at 14°. For just my 4 bay HP hoses at 20oz per minute below 14°, it will weep 900 gallons in 24 hours. I pay about $20 per thousand for water and sewage. It can add up real fast with the winter weather we've been having. So during extreme cold, I shut down 2 bays and sometimes 3. But I always leave at least 1 bay open. You will always have those die hards!

 

[GoBuckeyes]

In my opinion, needle valves in this application are a guaranteed migraine. We ditched them 20 years ago and went to fixed orifice plates. Just like a 2505 spray nozzle will flow .05 gpm at 40 psi, so will a fixed orifice plate. No guess work, no swollen valve seats etc etc. Set a regulator to a pressure that you can maintain, we use 40 psi. Then decide how many oz/min you need to weep to not freeze. We weep hot water and therefore can use less the 16-20 oz/min that 2biz has settled on. We have found that 12 oz/min works for us, but like I said, we are weeping 110-115 F water. Yes there is an expense to heat the water as well as soften it, but, we can use less of it, it keeps our trough toasty and it doesn't freeze on the bay floor. Just my two cents.

These are the parts we use for the fixed orfice....

you need a teejet body, an orfice plate with the correct size hole (the hole size is in .000" and I believe we are using a 27 or .027"), a strainer if you want and a female adapter cap.

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18237-spraying-systems-cp1322-14-teejet-body-brass-male.aspx
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18...4916-39-stainless-steel-orifice-plate-39.aspx
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18...53-100-ss-teejet-strainer-brass-100-mesh.aspx
They make this next part in brass but I couldn't find it in Kleen-Rite's catalog
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-31...female-adapter-for-diaphragm-check-valve.aspx


You can use this website to calculate flows. Our primary PSI is 40 and our orifice size is 27 or 28. When you plug in 40 psi and .027 into the calculator you'll get a flow of .0961468 gpm or 12.3 oz/min. Dultmeier is actually where we ordered the plates years ago.

https://www.tlv.com/global/US/calculator/water-flow-rate-through-orifice.html

 

[OurTown]

In my opinion, needle valves in this application are a guaranteed migraine. We ditched them 20 years ago and went to fixed orifice plates. Just like a 2505 spray nozzle will flow .05 gpm at 40 psi, so will a fixed orifice plate. No guess work, no swollen valve seats etc etc. Set a regulator to a pressure that you can maintain, we use 40 psi. Then decide how many oz/min you need to weep to not freeze. We weep hot water and therefore can use less the 16-20 oz/min that 2biz has settled on. We have found that 12 oz/min works for us, but like I said, we are weeping 110-115 F water. Yes there is an expense to heat the water as well as soften it, but, we can use less of it, it keeps our trough toasty and it doesn't freeze on the bay floor. Just my two cents.

These are the parts we use for the fixed orfice....

you need a teejet body, an orfice plate with the correct size hole (the hole size is in .000" and I believe we are using a 27 or .027"), a strainer if you want and a female adapter cap.

https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18237-spraying-systems-cp1322-14-teejet-body-brass-male.aspx
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18...4916-39-stainless-steel-orifice-plate-39.aspx
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-18...53-100-ss-teejet-strainer-brass-100-mesh.aspx
They make this next part in brass but I couldn't find it in Kleen-Rite's catalog
https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-31...female-adapter-for-diaphragm-check-valve.aspx


You can use this website to calculate flows. Our primary PSI is 40 and our orifice size is 27 or 28. When you plug in 40 psi and .027 into the calculator you'll get a flow of .0961468 gpm or 12.3 oz/min. Dultmeier is actually where we ordered the plates years ago.

https://www.tlv.com/global/US/calculator/water-flow-rate-through-orifice.html

Thanks. I was thinking of something like that but was not exactly sure how to go about it.

 

[JGinther]

You can use this website to calculate flows. Our primary PSI is 40 and our orifice size is 27 or 28. When you plug in 40 psi and .027 into the calculator you'll get a flow of .0961468 gpm or 12.3 oz/min. Dultmeier is actually where we ordered the plates years ago.

Thats really helpful! I never knew those metered plates existed, but have used the poor boy method:

1/16" tubing length coiled up. Just cut down the length for more flow. Then tape it off so nobody touches it not knowing why the heck someone would make the water get dizzy first.

 

[2Biz]

Where is the swing check located in the system? Wondering why its in there if you have checks at the pump?

Can you post a photo of your weep system?

 

[OurTown]

I'll try to remember to take some photos tomorrow.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I wanted update some of the numbers I gave the other day which was from memory. We are actually using a “25” oriface which weeps 10.5 oz/min at 40 psi. I actually had a freeze up today and had my hands on one this morning. When you’re weeping constantly you can actually get by with less than that. It’s when the temp is around 27-28 and the weepmiser is hardly on that you need to find your minimum weep volume. This bay froze because it was only weeping 4 oz/min because it was partly plugged with a piece of rubber from my hp check valve.

I also want to post a picture of just how small this oriface or hole is that controls this amount of flow. Once you see how small it is you’ll have a better appreciation of why needle valves are a futile endeavor for this application. The plate is about the size of a dime for reference.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tnh32ky9rscp4g/IMG_3477.JPG?dl=0

 

[OurTown]

View attachment 1234 View attachment 1235

Here is our setup.

 

[2Biz]

Are you using galvanized wands? Or SS? I had lots of trouble in the beginning using galvanized wands with freeze ups and plugged tips. Ever since switching to SS wands, it is extremely rare to have a plugged tip.

Is the 2 poly tube feeds for hot and cold supply to the weep? Still trying to figure out why the swing checks? I thought that's what the main back flow preventer was for? Do you have any galvanized fittings or pipe in any of the plumbing?

 

[OurTown]

Two wands are galv and one ss. We have the other two but have not switched them yet. No galv fittings or pipe. The tee continues poly tubing to the next bay. The hot or cold comes in through the green handled valves so either would go through the solenoid valve.

 

[2Biz]

Just my 2 cents...Ditch the two galvanized wands for SS...Also, you say the weep is daisy chained to each bay with what looks like 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD polytube?. Maybe this is creating the issue? Go back and look at how I designed my weep system and compare to how yours is plumbed. You see the difference? I have 5/8 ID hose supplying a 1/2" npt strainer and a 1/2" npt brass leg on the top. Then tee'd off the 1/2" supply to 1/4" fittings and needle valves. There is very little pressure difference between any of the 1/4" feeds to the needle valves because of the 1/2" supply. If I used 1/4" supply, pressure would drop to each tee with the end 90° fitting having the least pressure. Remember how I explained having a 1/2" supply in my house and how you got scalded in the shower when someone flushed the commode? There is a significant pressure drop on the cold supply since the water takes path of least resistance. Switching to 3/4" main supply to all the 1/2" branches minimizes pressure loss on the cold supply when the commode is flushed.

Same principal here. I think you'd see the same results if you plumbed yours the same way I did or at least supplied all your bay tees with something larger than 1/4" ID tubing. More like 1/2" or larger....Plus using larger supply hose or tubing helps slow water flow, minimizing water hammer. Also see how the weep-washer causes you problems? Here's a youtube video to support what I'm trying to explain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPZ-F4XvQf0

I haven't had a freeze up since installing my new design AND installing all SS wands. I just looked at Kr, the 18" SS flex wand is only $1.42 more than galvanized? A no brainer!

 

[Kevin James]

All of our wands are galvanized, we’ve never had an issue with them plugging up or any other problems for that matter. I’m not familiar with the Superwash weep system. Does it cycle on and off like the Dixmor weepmizer staying on longer as it gets colder? I see you have 42 psi on the gauge, is the weep system on when you took this picture? I think 2Biz might be on to something. It kind of looks to me like you might need to increase your water feed to 1/2” tubing going to the individual weep valves.

 

[OurTown]

Just my 2 cents...Ditch the two galvanized wands for SS...Also, you say the weep is daisy chained to each bay with what looks like 1/4" ID X 3/8" OD polytube?. Maybe this is creating the issue? Go back and look at how I designed my weep system and compare to how yours is plumbed. You see the difference? I have 5/8 ID hose supplying a 1/2" npt strainer and a 1/2" npt brass leg on the top. Then tee'd off the 1/2" supply to 1/4" fittings and needle valves. There is very little pressure difference between any of the 1/4" feeds to the needle valves because of the 1/2" supply. If I used 1/4" supply, pressure would drop to each tee with the end 90° fitting having the least pressure. Remember how I explained having a 1/2" supply in my house and how you got scalded in the shower when someone flushed the commode? There is a significant pressure drop on the cold supply since the water takes path of least resistance. Switching to 3/4" main supply to all the 1/2" branches minimizes pressure loss on the cold supply when the commode is flushed.

Same principal here. I think you'd see the same results if you plumbed yours the same way I did or at least supplied all your bay tees with something larger than 1/4" ID tubing. More like 1/2" or larger....Plus using larger supply hose or tubing helps slow water flow, minimizing water hammer. Also see how the weep-washer causes you problems? Here's a youtube video to support what I'm trying to explain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPZ-F4XvQf0

I haven't had a freeze up since installing my new design AND installing all SS wands. I just looked at Kr, the 18" SS flex wand is only $1.42 more than galvanized? A no brainer!

I understand flow vs pressure but we are talking less than a 1/3 of a gallon per minute total for all three bays. It is 3/8 od/ 1/4 id tubing. How about this for an idea before I redo everything with 1/2" od tubing. The last bay that the tubing feeds also has a tee instead of an elbow for some reason. I could replace the end plug with a gauge to see if it reads close to the 42 psi incoming.

 

[OurTown]

Does it cycle on and off like the Dixmor weepmizer staying on longer as it gets colder?

Yes but I'm not sure if it has the same parameters.

I see you have 42 psi on the gauge, is the weep system on when you took this picture?

Yes. I took the photo when the solenoid kicked off to show our pressure going to the weeps.

 

[2Biz]

Will be interesting to see pressure difference, weep on, weep off and at the end tee verses at beginning with weep on.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Having a psi gauge at the END of the weep manifold is definitely a must.


My guess 2Biz, the swing checks are on his hot and cold feed lines. They’re there to prevent hot going back up the cold line and vice versa if he were to have both feeds open weeping “warm” water.

 

[OurTown]

My guess 2Biz, the swing checks are on his hot and cold feed lines. They’re there to prevent hot going back up the cold line and vice versa if he were to have both feeds open weeping “warm” water.

That's what I was thinking too. I don't know much about these things. Can they intermittently not open or open partially? Is the water volume too little for them to work correctly?

 

[OurTown]

View attachment 1236


The pressure comes up to about 35 psi in a second and up to 42 in about two more seconds. The pressure at the mesh strainer comes up about a second sooner. Seems pretty good to me. Two of the bays were just about shut off today. It's a daily chore to adjust these but only one frozen bay so far this year. One bay has a galvanized wand and one has a SS wand.

 

[MEP001]

I still believe you'll be able to adjust more accurately without having to barely crack the needle valves and then fight with the flow dropping if you use a regulator to lower the pressure to 10-20 PSI.