I have a cat 623 pump that needs replaced on my spot free delivery to the bays. It is currently running at about 400psi, but I think I want to upgrade to a procon pump setup. I have 3 selfserve bays running 2505 tips. I understand the pressure will drop to around 200 - 250 psi but I am not sure it will be that noticeable. Can someone recommend what pump and motor combination will work for this? I am having a little trouble finding the right combination.
Self Serve Spot Free Pump/Motor Recommendation
- Thread starter sparkey
- Start date
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
I use a procon for SFR, I run it at approx 250 psi.
Hang on, I'll see if I can dig up info on the model# and motor.
Hang on, I'll see if I can dig up info on the model# and motor.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
my sfr procon is a 2607A, stainless. I dont see what the complete part# is, but pretty sure the 260 is the max gpm:
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
the motor is a baldor, here's a pic of the spec plate:
I would probably use a 871 1/2hp motor http://www.proconpumps.com/products/871-Motor-.html
For a pump head I’d use a Series 4 pump http://www.proconpumps.com/products/Series-4-Pump.html Kleen-Rite https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-62810-procon-114b330f11xx-series-4-brass-rotary-vane-pump-330-gph-1725-rpm-250-psi.aspx
Check on EBay, I’ve gotten some pretty good deals on Procon pumps there. I wouldn’t buy a used pump or motor on EBay.
For a pump head I’d use a Series 4 pump http://www.proconpumps.com/products/Series-4-Pump.html Kleen-Rite https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-62810-procon-114b330f11xx-series-4-brass-rotary-vane-pump-330-gph-1725-rpm-250-psi.aspx
Check on EBay, I’ve gotten some pretty good deals on Procon pumps there. I wouldn’t buy a used pump or motor on EBay.
We used a 1/2hp motor with no problems. You could try a 3/4hp motor, any higher I think it would be waste. On a side note, they say the Procon pumps can be rebuild. I've found that it cost almost as much as a new pump to have one rebuilt.
MEP001
Well-known member
1/2 HP is just barely enough to run 250 PSI. I always run 3/4.
I'd recommend a regulator on the pump. The ones with a relief valve won't last if you use the internal relief to regulate pressure, and if you use one without you absolutely have to use a regulator. I couldn't find it on Kleen-Rite's site, but I use the SMC 90-1000 PSI balanced pressure regulator and I route the bypass back to the tank.
We run ours at 175psi with a 1/2hp motor. Off of the pump we use this relief
www.kleen-ritecorp.com
with the discharge routed back to the tank. It's been that way for well over 26 years, little or no problems.
Spraying Systems AA110-3/8-HSS-3 3/8" Pressure Relief Valve
Spraying Systems AA110-3/8-HSS-3 3/8" Pressure Relief Valve 300 PSI
OurTown
Well-known member
MEP001
Well-known member
I've run a Cat 390 at 450 PSI for spot free delivery. It can keep pressure at five bays running, six and stay above 400. The big downside is customers that spend 10-15 minutes rinsing with it.
A Procon and motor is a LOT cheaper, about $450 including the C-face adaptor and coupler. A Cat 390 is almost $800; a 623 is over $1100. The 623 should last for ages, but the 390 tends to beat itself apart and needs to be rebuilt every couple years. I've seen a Procon running 250 PSI last over ten years.
Only the stainless Procons are worth rebuilding. They sell a repair kit for the brass ones but it costs more than a new pump.
A Procon and motor is a LOT cheaper, about $450 including the C-face adaptor and coupler. A Cat 390 is almost $800; a 623 is over $1100. The 623 should last for ages, but the 390 tends to beat itself apart and needs to be rebuilt every couple years. I've seen a Procon running 250 PSI last over ten years.
Only the stainless Procons are worth rebuilding. They sell a repair kit for the brass ones but it costs more than a new pump.
OurTown
Well-known member
What is the issue with people spending that much time on it?
Our Spot free pump is a Cat 1010.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Given that you need to use heated softened water to produce RO water, plus electricity, pus reject (and the additional sewer cost that goes with it), plus the SFR unit purchase & maintenance costs: SFR has a much higher cost basis to deliver. If you run it at a higher pressure and customers use it INSTEAD of regular rinse, it replaces one of your highest margin functions with your lowest margin function, as well as eliminating a step in the wash process. I also observe that many customers use the HP rinse in such a way that they are still "cleaning" the car with the rinse function, so cars get a little bit cleaner.
Yes I know that is just one side of a debate, just trying to give info to help answer your question.
OurTown
Well-known member
Okay I did some math and you are mostly correct as I was assuming the delivered gallons per minute in the bay. We soften everything at our wash but do not heat the HP rinse water or water going to the RO unit. I did not factor in depreciation on the pumps or RO unit or cost of filters. The pre filters are about $30/year but I'm not sure how long the membranes could last. Some say a really long time if they are not back flushed or subjected to chlorine. The unit itself would have very little cost of maintenance over the years but I guess you could add a tiny amount per gallon to my numbers. Our water and sewer including the tiny amount for softening it is about $ .0154/gal. With high pressure rinse cost at the bay is about $ .054/minute. Our RO unit uses about 2.2 gallons to make one gallon of spot free. The electric cost is about $ .0022/gal. That all makes our spot free at 400 psi cost about $ .085/minute at the bay. Right now we are charging $ .55/minute in the self serve bays so both are a good mark up. If someone uses spot free to rinse and it takes twice as long aren't you making more money on that customer? Let's assume 2 minutes of high pressure rinse vs 4 of spot free. For us we take in $1.10 for two minutes of high pressure rinse and the product costs us $ .108. Four minutes of spot free takes in $2.20 and the product cost is $ .34. In reality it would take them longer than twice as long to rinse with spot free even at our 400 psi. Maybe I missed something on this logic. By the way our delivered at bay presoak costs more than either of these two and our foam brush is less. (assuming not on winter soap) Just something to chew on.
MEP001
Well-known member
Yes, you're still making money on spot free, just not as much as with rinse. It just bugs me seeing so much purified water going down the drain, which they could mostly avoid if they used regular rinse first.
I don't mix heated water to warm the RO supply. In my experience the improvement in product is negligible. I get better results by replumbing a system where it recirculates part of the reject so it produces at 1:1.
Your membrane(s) should last ten years. I use a .35 micron prefilter which catches a lot more stuff than the usual 5 micron. I switched to that after working on a car wash that had its membranes fouling in about two months from sediment in the water supply. If you keep your water soft and protect your membrane from chlorine and debris it should last a very long time. I use a pool/spa chlorine kit and test the RO reject. The chlorine will be concentrated there and easier to read. FWIW with a properly sized charcoal tank (1 cu.ft. per membrane) it should outlast the membranes - I always change the charcoal and membranes together.
I don't mix heated water to warm the RO supply. In my experience the improvement in product is negligible. I get better results by replumbing a system where it recirculates part of the reject so it produces at 1:1.
Your membrane(s) should last ten years. I use a .35 micron prefilter which catches a lot more stuff than the usual 5 micron. I switched to that after working on a car wash that had its membranes fouling in about two months from sediment in the water supply. If you keep your water soft and protect your membrane from chlorine and debris it should last a very long time. I use a pool/spa chlorine kit and test the RO reject. The chlorine will be concentrated there and easier to read. FWIW with a properly sized charcoal tank (1 cu.ft. per membrane) it should outlast the membranes - I always change the charcoal and membranes together.
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
So the long term cost of more frequent charcoal replacement is negligible? That probably is another dumb comment from me but understand when Specialty set us up with a much more expensive chlorine tolerant membrane back in 1987 ... that could makes more a difference specifically for us. On our to-do list we are way overdue on changing over to the charcoal filter approach.
We have never preheated the water going into our RO unit. I read it would increase the RO production rate though. Fills the storage tank quicker etc.
On the push buttons (menu style) on our coin box we purposely have a rinse button before & after the wax. That probably makes it less likely that the customer would go directly to the spot free after soap or wax ... not sure.
We have never preheated the water going into our RO unit. I read it would increase the RO production rate though. Fills the storage tank quicker etc.
On the push buttons (menu style) on our coin box we purposely have a rinse button before & after the wax. That probably makes it less likely that the customer would go directly to the spot free after soap or wax ... not sure.
I've always used just a booster pump:
www.zoro.com
Pushes the spot free at around 180-200 psi .. seems to last forever.
Dayton Multi-Stage Booster Pump, 1 hp, 120/240V AC, 1 Phase, 3/4 in NPT Inlet Size, 12 Stage 45MW72 | Zoro
Order Dayton Multi-Stage Booster Pump, 1 hp, 120/240V AC, 1 Phase, 3/4 in NPT Inlet Size, 12 Stage, 45MW72 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.
www.zoro.com
Pushes the spot free at around 180-200 psi .. seems to last forever.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
It would take twice as long, but it doesn't... because they don't finish because it's taking too long.
I think that results in a tinge of dissatisfaction and a less clean car.
At least, thats my observation in my market - most of my customers (the discerning ones anyway) recognize the value of using the high volume HP rinse to break the clings and push all the soap/suds/soils off the car, then use the SFR as it's intended - to eliminate spotting.
Yes my sfr is used quite a bit.
