Spot free solenoid problem

[OurTown]

We now have this issue in our 3 bay SS wash that when the spot free is running in either bays 1 or 3 then bay 2 also has spot free. Two or so years ago we had the same problem and it turned out that the check valve on the spot free line above bay 2 failed and blew out the seals on the solenoid valve. We replaced it with a new US Para Plate check valve and a rebuild kit for the GC solenoid valve. Here we go again but this time the failed part does not seem so obvious. I took apart the solenoid and the piston does not seem stuck and the other parts in there look normal to me. I did not remove the above bay check valve to test it but I pulled the hose off the solenoid and turned on rinse to see if it was pushing water back. That is probably not the best way to check it but I didn't have much time today. Just to make sure it is a mechanical issue I verified that there was not voltage to bay 2's solenoid when the others are activated. Could it be something other than an issue with the solenoid valve? One interesting thing to note is that the solenoid valves are only rated for 300 psi and we are running 400. It was like that when we bought the place and appears to be the original 2003 setup.

 

[Jsshac]

Bad or leaking solenoid valve in bay 2

 

[slash007]

I would have to think if the solenoid does not have any trash under the piston (something that happens often in my setup) then maybe the piston is not sealing well.

 

[copperglobe]

Bad or leaking solenoid valve in bay 2

Agreed. Been there, done that and it fixed the problem.

 

[MEP001]

I use the same type solenoid except I use the one rated for 1500 PSI withe the product pumped at 450 PSI. The original valves failed because the seats were rubber and the pressure cut through them. The rebuilds had Teflon or some plastic and haven't had an issue.

 

[OurTown]

Agreed. Been there, done that and it fixed the problem.

Is your setup like ours and did you upgrade to a higher psi valve?

 

[OurTown]

I use the same type solenoid except I use the one rated for 1500 PSI withe the product pumped at 450 PSI. The original valves failed because the seats were rubber and the pressure cut through them. The rebuilds had Teflon or some plastic and haven't had an issue.

This is the only one that I could find that was stainless and had a higher psi rating.


https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-24582-gc-38-normally-closed-stainless-steel-valve-24v-2200psi.aspx

 

[OurTown]

I just talked to Dan at Super Wash and when I said that the solenoids were only rated for 300 psi he said that didn't sound quite right. He then pulled a new one out of the box and sure enough it is 300 psi. He assured me that they have been using the same model for 32 years but is going to bring it to the company's attention. Another "Super Wash head scratcher". I'm going to pull it apart again and get my magnifier out to look at the seat more carefully. The last time it happened the blown seat was really obvious but this time there's something more sinister going on.

 

[copperglobe]

Is your setup like ours and did you upgrade to a higher psi valve?

Yes. Get a higher PSI solenoid valve. That solves the problem.

 

[copperglobe]

I just talked to Dan at Super Wash and when I said that the solenoids were only rated for 300 psi he said that didn't sound quite right. He then pulled a new one out of the box and sure enough it is 300 psi. He assured me that they have been using the same model for 32 years but is going to bring it to the company's attention. Another "Super Wash head scratcher". I'm going to pull it apart again and get my magnifier out to look at the seat more carefully. The last time it happened the blown seat was really obvious but this time there's something more sinister going on.

Super Wash knew about the problem 30 years ago. I had the same conversation with them back then.

 

[MEP001]

This is the only one that I could find that was stainless and had a higher psi rating.


https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-24582-gc-38-normally-closed-stainless-steel-valve-24v-2200psi.aspx

This is most likely the same solenoid with a coil cover.

GC Valves N.C. 24 Volt AC Solenoid Valve, S Series, Stainless: 3/8'' FPT, 15-1200 O.D.P - Dultmeier Sales

GC Valves N.C. 24 Volt AC Solenoid Valve, S Series, Stainless - 3/8'' FPT, 15-1200 O.D.P, High Pressure Stainless Steel Solenoid Valves;; ;2-Way;High Pressure;Piloted Piston Operation;Stainless Bodi

www.dultmeier.com

I wouldn't be surprised if Kleen-Rite is selling it at the solenoid body's maximum pressure instead of the MOPD.

 

[OurTown]

I noticed today that now bay 1 is stuck open but only partially. After disassembly of 1 and 2 again the only thing I noticed that bay one's seat seal is swelled. Bay 2 looks fine. Now if you start bay 3 then bay 2 is on full blast and bay 1 is half on. Does the hole in the piston need to have a particular orientation?

 

[OurTown]

This is most likely the same solenoid with a coil cover.

GC Valves N.C. 24 Volt AC Solenoid Valve, S Series, Stainless: 3/8'' FPT, 15-1200 O.D.P - Dultmeier Sales

GC Valves N.C. 24 Volt AC Solenoid Valve, S Series, Stainless - 3/8'' FPT, 15-1200 O.D.P, High Pressure Stainless Steel Solenoid Valves;; ;2-Way;High Pressure;Piloted Piston Operation;Stainless Bodi

www.dultmeier.com

I wouldn't be surprised if Kleen-Rite is selling it at the solenoid body's maximum pressure instead of the MOPD.

The one I linked has a max operating pressure differential of 2200 psi according to GC Valves's website.

 

[MEP001]

I don't know how the two differ overall, but I do know the ones from Dultmeier stay closed when they're off. The DEMA 453P solenoids need at least 15 PSI behind them or they don't seal closed.

The ones from Dultmeier have a Teflon seat which won't swell. I don't know what the ones from Kleen-Rite have.

 

[mjwalsh]

Just a thought. When we are checking into high pressure solenoid valves ... we should pay attention to the orifice size on the specification. It seems for some applications that could be a factor when it comes to possible water volume???

 

[OurTown]

Just a thought. When we are checking into high pressure solenoid valves ... we should pay attention to the orifice size on the specification. It seems for some applications that could be a factor when it comes to possible water volume???

It is the same as the pipe connection which is 3/8".

 

[mjwalsh]

I don't know how the two differ overall, but I do know the ones from Dultmeier stay closed when they're off. The DEMA 453P solenoids need at least 15 PSI behind them or they don't seal closed.

The ones from Dultmeier have a Teflon seat which won't swell. I don't know what the ones from Kleen-Rite have.

If the specification on the valve states 0-3000 PSI does that mean that they will seal closed at zero back pressure??? I am looking at some with a 3 mm orifice 3600 psi that state the starting pressure as zero. Another one of the same series states 10 mm orifice but ouch 87-3600 psi on its specific specification. Starting pressure at about 87 psi???

 

[OurTown]

I called Dultmeier to get the full part number and it is H401AF24Z1CF5. The one at Kleen-Rite is H401GF24Z1CF5. After talking to GC Valves the only difference is that the one from Dultmeier has a NEMA 1 coil housing and the one from KR has a NEMA 4/4X coils housing. Both have max pressure ratings of 2,200 psi so the one from Dultmeier has incorrect info. He said that the valve used to have a lower rating some years ago but it has been updated to 2,200. Also in case anybody else was wondering the tiny hole in the piston does not have any clocking orientation upon reassembly.

 

[OurTown]

We bought and installed the ones I linked to from KR and they have been working flawlessly for about a week now.