Thoughts on Ginsan Pump Stand?

[slash007]

I am buying a wash that has 3 SS bays and a Ginsan SS pump stand. It is pretty different from my JC stands and I was wondering what thoughts you guys have regarding how well it is designed and if it is something I should learn and refurbish, or look for a used JC stand to match my other washes? It was built in 2001 and is pretty rough.

From what I saw today, two bays are working fine and one of the bays has a strong pulsation in it. I was told they tried replacing seals and it didn't work, so they put in a new pump head and still had the same problem. They say that someone told them it might be the mixing block where the high pressure hose goes to the pump. (I've attached a photo of the pump, it's the rectangle blocks on the left) Today they had shut it down as they say it was somehow causing air to get into the other bays and making them freeze up, so they shut it down. None of it makes sense to me, but I figured someone with experience with Ginsan stands might know more.

Another thing, there is a separate triple foam stand, but not TF in the bays. I was told they use it to put out 3 colors in the foam brush, then in the winter they switch to the single foam brush mixing tank and use winter soap in it. Is there any reason I can't use that stand as a standalone TF stand and run hoses out to the bays and add TF?

 

[MEP001]

There's a low-pressure check valve inline on the line from the "hot" water tank that might be bad and causing cavitation. I think the valve is under the ball valve at the tank.

The stand itself is fine. The plumbing is awful. I've removed the manifolds on a couple and plumbed everything off the pump with unions for easier service. If you don't plan on using pushbutton doors, everything in the cabinets can come out except the transformer and contactor.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

If you don't plan on using pushbutton doors, everything in the cabinets can come out except the transformer and contactor.

The GS-27D has to remain. It shuts off the weep on low pressure functions, provides a 1 second delay for the starter(really important for rotary doors) and it also controls the low water cutoff protection. The timers are already disconnected which means the doors have already been upgraded to display timers. The GS-23 Hourmasters are obsolete but don't control anything anyways. I don't know if it's just the angle of the picture but the one picture of the pump looks like the mounting is crooked as heck.

The TF stand you have is for either foam brush or a stand alone gun.

Really, for a 20ish year old stand it doesn't look bad. I've seen far, far, far worse.

 

[slash007]

Thanks. There are push button doors already and I plan on just upgrading them to similar doors, so I wouldn't remove anything anyway. Other than the GS-23's I guess since they are not used. Once I follow the plumbing and understand how it's setup, I'm sure that will help. I haven't spent much time on it at all yet. That photo does make the pump look crooked, I'll have to see if it actually is.

For the TF stand, I was told it was setup to automatically cut over at a certain temp, but that it wasn't functioning properly. Is that a feature that's offered?

 

[Dan kamsickas]

Thanks. There are push button doors already and I plan on just upgrading them to similar doors, so I wouldn't remove anything anyway. Other than the GS-23's I guess since they are not used. Once I follow the plumbing and understand how it's setup, I'm sure that will help. I haven't spent much time on it at all yet. That photo does make the pump look crooked, I'll have to see if it actually is.

For the TF stand, I was told it was setup to automatically cut over at a certain temp, but that it wasn't functioning properly. Is that a feature that's offered?

Not sure what they were talking about with the TF stand "switching over". We have a system that will automatically switch over the foam brush but with the triple foam it was usually weeped in cold weather because it was primarily designed as a separate function out of a gun. Some times they have been used for the foam brush but I always that that was an overly expensive way to deliver foam brush.

Here's a couple of flow diagrams from that generation of stand.

 

[DavidM]

That is a good pump stand. I wouldn't swap it out just to switch brands.
Not sure I agree with Mep on removing the manifolds, they never gave us any issues but if they cause an issue, that isn't a big deal to remove them.

David

 

[slash007]

The GS-27D has to remain. It shuts off the weep on low pressure functions, provides a 1 second delay for the starter(really important for rotary doors) and it also controls the low water cutoff protection. The timers are already disconnected which means the doors have already been upgraded to display timers. The GS-23 Hourmasters are obsolete but don't control anything anyways. I don't know if it's just the angle of the picture but the one picture of the pump looks like the mounting is crooked as heck.

The TF stand you have is for either foam brush or a stand alone gun.

Really, for a 20ish year old stand it doesn't look bad. I've seen far, far, far worse.

Thanks Dan. Does the winter/summer switch do anything other than shut off the weep?

 

[MEP001]

The GS-27D has to remain.

Usually by the time I get to it the GS-27D has already gone bad and been unhooked.

 

[STXCW]

We have a hand full of sites with them and they are good units. Only thing we have done is switched to IDX timers.

 

[slash007]

What's the function of the GS-27D, and what was the original purpose of the red one underneath?

 

[Dan kamsickas]

The summer/winter switch cuts power to the weep solenoid for the summer. You also need to shut off the ball feeding that solenoid because it's normally open.

The GS-27D has to remain. It shuts off the weep on low pressure functions, provides a 1 second delay for the starter(really important for rotary doors) and it also controls the low water cutoff protection.

The red box was the timer in older systems like that. The display that was in the bay was just a dumb display that did not control anything. I would assume the doors you now have display-timers built into them.

 

[MEP001]

Not sure I agree with Mep on removing the manifolds, they never gave us any issues but if they cause an issue, that isn't a big deal to remove them.

They don't usually cause any issues, although I have worked on three different car washes with this same equipment, and for some reason they used 5CP6120 pumps AND used pulleys of the same size on the pumps and motors. This makes the pump cavitate all the time on soap and rinse because the manifold can't flow enough water. It's also much more trouble to work on anything attached to the manifold, but if it's hanging off the pump and plumbed in below the stand there's more room to work.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

They don't usually cause any issues, although I have worked on three different car washes with this same equipment, and for some reason they used 5CP6120 pumps AND used pulleys of the same size on the pumps and motors. This makes the pump cavitate all the time on soap and rinse because the manifold can't flow enough water. It's also much more trouble to work on anything attached to the manifold, but if it's hanging off the pump and plumbed in below the stand there's more room to work.

Sounds like someone did some "field engineering" before you got there.

 

[MEP001]

Sounds like someone did some "field engineering" before you got there.

No, these were all installed that way.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

No, these were all installed that way.

We didn't use the 6120 back in '01. We wouldn't have built it with equal size pulleys. It didn't leave the factory that way.

 

[MEP001]

We didn't use the 6120 back in '01. We wouldn't have built it with equal size pulleys. It didn't leave the factory that way.

I will send you some pictures.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

I will send you some pictures.

Unless those pictures were taken when the equipment came off the truck, you're wasting your time. It didn't leave the factory that way. Not sure why you want to debate how we built equipment with someone who was actually at the factory when the equipment was built, but okay.

 

[MEP001]

All I can say is that two of the three people told me it was installed with the 5CP6120s. The third one has the exact same brand and size pulleys on the pumps and motors as the other two, so I would have to assume that they were all the same at installation.

 

[Dan kamsickas]

All I can say is that two of the three people told me it was installed with the 5CP6120s. The third one has the exact same brand and size pulleys on the pumps and motors as the other two, so I would have to assume that they were all the same at installation.

You were told it was installed that way and you assumed. Most likely a "brilliant" distributor and their "genius" techs had a "better" way of doing something. Knowing the area you are in, that's not surprising.

I spend way too much time on the phone with owners and techs trying to figure out what's going on with equipment that someone decided to "field engineer". Funny thing: once I get them to return it to the way it was designed it miraculously starts functioning properly again. Weird.

 

[MEP001]

It would surprise me a lot less if it was done by the installer. I hadn't thought about that possibility.