Time to do some plumbing

[MEP001]

I need to completely replumb the water lines of a wash. I prefer "old school" copper and solder joints, but that obviously takes a lot of time and copper is insanely expensive now. I hate PVC, I've considered using it, but it's my last choice. For me it's between copper, which if I use that I'll get a ProPress tool, or maybe PEX. I would not use push-in fittings because they will eventually leak. I've thought about a main manifold and running multiple lines out to everything since PEX is so cheap, and it would be nice to have a central location to shut things off like a breaker box. After "Snowmageddon" in Texas I also want something easy to drain, so if I run everything slightly uphill I can add a drain down low from the manifold and just open things up. Thoughts?

 

[Car_Wash_Guy]

That's a tough one. I'd lean copper. If you do PEX I'd get yourself a good wisbro expander tool

Just curious....why the hate for PVC or CPVC?

 

[Randy]

Go with the copper pipe, I know it's crazy expensive but it'll last a long time. If you go with PEX use the brass fittings, the plastic ones tend to crack, then you have a problem. PVC and CPVC aren't made or intend for a commercial application. As for freeze protection, add a few drain/blow down valve. Be proactive and buy/order case of -20 windshield washer fluid and keep it in storage for that day when you'll need it.

 

[MEP001]

Just curious....why the hate for PVC or CPVC?

It looks cheap, it's flimsy and harder to put hard fittings into the end where with copper it's strong enough that I can wrench on it, the ball valves are crap, and if it freezes it doesn't just blow a hole in a spot or two, it splits along the length and a lot more needs to be replaced.

 

[Randy]

Like I said it’s not made for commercial/industrial applications. It’s ok for underground sprinkler pipe.

 

[OurTown]

I like sweated copper but I'm kinda old school and learned to do it over 25 years ago. For sure pro press is faster but sweated copper to me seems more permanent. If you need 1 1/2" or 2" there's a big difference in the cost between sweat fittings and pro press fittings. If renting a tool you need to get it done quick to return the tool. I'm sure if you need to shut down the wash you want to get it done fast anyway but just throwing out the not so obvious advantages for sweated copper. Of course you need a big air/acetylene torch for the big diameter fittings and they are fun to sweat if you are not used to them. I'm not used to doing them but have done a handful and never had any leaks. Something that's on my plate is replumbing an entire house. I'll be replacing the supplies with PEX with brass fittings and the copper crimp rings.

 

[MEP001]

If I do copper, I'll run everything no bigger than 1" and with ProPress. The tool for 1-1/2" and 2" is around $5000. Won't be buying that.

I've looked at some tests of the fittings, and they should be very permanent. One looked into the statement of the manufacturers that they won't leak even if you remove the o-rings, and it's true. I also prefer sweated copper, but the ProPress fittings don't cost much more, and a good tool is only $800. It may come down to what I can find in PEX systems.

 

[Keno]

I think a lot should depend on how long you realistically think this location will still be around. PEX is supposed to have a lifespan of 40-50+ years. Will the wash even still be around for that long? Probably will be demolished by that point if it's in a good location.

 

[HeyVern]

copper and pro press fittings are the way to go. Get the supply house to throw in use of their tool with the purchase.

 

[MEP001]

I think a lot should depend on how long you realistically think this location will still be around. PEX is supposed to have a lifespan of 40-50+ years. Will the wash even still be around for that long? Probably will be demolished by that point if it's in a good location.

It's already about 50 years old. I'm certainly not going to be around in another 50.

 

[MEP001]

copper and pro press fittings are the way to go. Get the supply house to throw in use of their tool with the purchase.

I would normally use "L" copper with solder fittings, but if I can use "M" with ProPress fittings maybe I can save enough to justify the cost of the tool.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

We have used 2" Schedule 80 CPVC for water line runs and manifold with great success. It's definitly not flimsy but takes up a lot of space.

If 1" copper will get you enough volume then go for it, but don't let the tool dictate your decision. You wouldn't need to rent the tool for very long. I made 40+ connections in a little over an hour. Renting a press for larger than 1" fittings shouldn't cost you more than $60 for the day. If you need it, you need it.

 

[washnshine]

It's already about 50 years old. I'm certainly not going to be around in another 50.

That’s another way to look at it - not how long the fittings will last, but how long the installer will last!

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is this SS? IB? Tunnel? I am questioning why it has to be a Choice of A, B, or C? I have tunnels where the Back room main lines are copper. Then It may transition to a Galvanized manifold and from their braided hose to all equipment. I started using Pex and Shark bite fittings in various areas to replace / repair some old stuff perhaps 10 years ago. So far, no leaks. .

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

I have propressed 2 car washes and multiple commercial buildings they will not leak. We Use pro press all the time at work. PEX will take the abuse of freezing bc I have seen it expand and not burst and go back. I have seen alot of CPVC bust with just a tap of a hammer when removing ductwork and flood the entire house very fragile nobody installs it anymore.

 

[MEP001]

Is this SS? IB? Tunnel? I am questioning why it has to be a Choice of A, B, or C? I have tunnels where the Back room main lines are copper. Then It may transition to a Galvanized manifold and from their braided hose to all equipment. I started using Pex and Shark bite fittings in various areas to replace / repair some old stuff perhaps 10 years ago. So far, no leaks. .

SS, everything at this wash now is hard-plumbed copper, the lines going to the 3-compartment tank are hard-plumbed with no shutoffs except for one for the whole tank. I'd rather not used galvanized, and if I do PEX I'm thinking I'll end up with at least five lines going around the room. Although thinking on it now, I should probably run copper or large PEX around the room to a manifold since almost everything is on that side, then individual runs to each spot. That would cut way down on the cost, and I've found a tool that can do both ProPress and PEX fittings using different dies.

 

[Zal]

I like pex with "home run" manifolds Allows smaller pex to each device and a shut off for each run. Downside is needs to be neat and organized, not always happening in an equipment room

 

[Earl Weiss]

I am still seeing the solution as combination of things. Due to pump stand vibrations i would not want anything hard line connected to it and it would depend on how room is arranged. Thinking Main water lines hard lined along a wall with numerous T' and Valves with Barbed fittings to accept braided hose. Braided hose from their to the pump stand as needed. Hard line to supply something like boilers water heaters etc.

 

[MEP001]

I am still seeing the solution as combination of things. Due to pump stand vibrations i would not want anything hard line connected to it and it would depend on how room is arranged. Thinking Main water lines hard lined along a wall with numerous T' and Valves with Barbed fittings to accept braided hose. Braided hose from their to the pump stand as needed. Hard line to supply something like boilers water heaters etc.

That's what I usually do. Just trying to cut some costs, and maybe have something that will hold up in a freeze. I was down for two months, between all the damage done and the lack of supply of pipe and fittings. As soon as I saw the extent of the damage I went home and ordered a crap-ton of copper fittings from Zoro. I was glad I did, copper pipe and fittings went up 600%. The tank hooked straight to hardline hasn't been an issue is almost 50 years, and the pump stands are massively overbuilt so no vibrations. It's the only car wash I go to where I can set a wrench on the tank and not have it vibrate off to the floor. But normally I run pipe, terminate with ball valves, then run hoses to the tanks. I use stainless steel braided water heater connector hoses or SS washing machine hoses for the connection.

 

[Don B.]

I would think copper would be the best. I’ve always used pvc. Never really had a problem with it. I used it when we originally built the wash 26 years ago. I only started having leak problems, at the joints, in the past year or so. I went back with it again during my rehab. No freeze problems in the equipment room, as it is heated. Thought about pex but have no experience with it. I plumbed a 1 1/2”, 12 valve main manifold for my HP pumping unit to shut off each line individually. It is a little harder to put metal fittings in it without seeps, but I’ve learned to wrap the threads heavy with Teflon and that usually takes care of the leaks.