Zack Arnold Washtech Controls law suit status

[PaulLovesJamie]

As many of you already know, I'm in the process of suing a vendor for breach of contract for selling me a credit card system that doesnt work and refusing to refund my money. I'm suing for my out of pocket costs, I am not asking for legal fees or damages. (Not yet anyway, but I'm very close to changing my mind. Very close.)

After 4 months, he finally offered to settle out of court under the following conditions:

• no admission of his fault or liability
• I must have my complaint with the BBB removed
• I must post a retraction on the AutoCareForum stating the this issue was resolved to my satisfaction
• I must have Bill remove my previous posts on this topic
• Gag order - I can never comment on this subject again
• apparently he's only offering the initial purchase price, not my actual costs

My response to his lawyer was "No way - any settlement will be for my costs with no conditions, otherwise I'd rather have a judgement."

But as always, I'm interested in hearing your reaction - what do you think? Would you even consider it? Any other advice you'd offer me?

 

[rph9168]

This sounds like an initial offer. They certainly can't be making it a "take it or leave it" proposition. Since they have dragged their feet and forced this whole thing this far I think you should go for the purchase price plus legal fees with no conditions. If you take them to court they will also have to pay for your attorney and court costs and probably will not be able to dictate any conditions.

 

[Eric H]

• no admission of his fault or liability
• I must have my complaint with the BBB removed
• I must post a retraction on the AutoCareForum stating the this issue was resolved to my satisfaction
• I must have Bill remove my previous posts on this topic
• Gag order - I can never comment on this subject again
• apparently he's only offering the initial purchase price, not my actual costs

1. Yeah, go ahead. He's just the vendor not the manufacturer, right?
2. Who checks with the BBB anyway?
3. Well, if he gives your money back is it resolved to your satisfaction?
4. You can ask Bill to do it. Bill can do whatever he dam well pleases.
5. See #1
6. Counter offer with your actual costs.

One question. Does JJJ have to keep his mouth shut regarding that involved article you wrote?

BTW: i really think you need to revisit your opinion on the EVE system. Even though it is not internet based it clears the cards in 10 seconds in most cases and the equipment stars immediately anyway.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

I am not familiar with the situation, but I will second the whole idea of the EVE system. It has worked great for me so far and I can't wait to get another one.

 

[Greg Pack]

What, No endorsement deal required?

I mean, we could picture you in front of your carwash "Washtech's new credit card system really CHANGED my bottom line!"

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

What, No endorsement deal required?

I mean, we could picture you in front of your carwash "Washtech's new credit card system really CHANGED my bottom line!"

Oooh, I like that - except, maybe I can get the booth across from his at the ICA show, much better exposure there!

 

[Indiana Wash]

1. First, you should have paid with a credit card so you could cancel him and avoid court.
2. No admission of fault or liability - who cares. That's why divorces are no fault.
3. Can you remove a complaint with the BBB?
4. If you need the money, it is resolved, so why not post saying it was resolved to your satisfaction?
5. You're not the Boss of Bill. The only thing you can do is request that Bill do something. Heck, I can't even make my dog sit or my kid eat. GL with that. Agreeing that someone else will do something as part of your end of an agreement is silly. Agreeing that you will request that it be done in writing makes much more sense.
6. Gag order - why not? I can't talk the horrible malpractice treatment I received at a hospital that shall remain nameless due to a binding settlement agreement. I had destroyed part of my skull, broken my arm and two ribs. They argued with me and said nothing was broken. I ended up with a plate in my head to replace part of my skull. But I will never tell which hospital it was due to the binding settlement agreement.
7. Initial price may be appropriate. This is an issue for negotiation. You will have to verify your actual costs. They wll have to be forseeable costs. Actual costs include contracted labor and necessary parts. Actual costs typically do not include your time billed at $100/hour.

You are unlikely to get attorney's fees in most jursidictions. The American legal system typically has each party pay his own attorney's fees. My advice, HIRE AN ATTORNEY. The ultimate question you are going to have to ask yourself is how much time, energy and money you care to waste punishing this guy. Is it appropriate to punish him? Sure it is. Do you want to waste hours, days, weeks, years of your life doing it? That is up to you. Personally, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

a few short answers

Thanks for the replies, emails, and PMs; I very much appreciate your input and advice. Here are some short responses to the questions you asked:

Regarding just accepting the original purchase price, that is in fact all I asked for at first (months ago), and I even stated that I'd like to part on good terms. He said no. After a few weeks he said ok, but I had to pay to send his equipment back, and I'd be refunded after he was able to re-sell the equipment. So Im supposed to spend MORE $, not have any equipment, and only have a promise of refund later??? Then he started adding demands such as the gag order etc - as though I were the one who had failed to perform.

The standard breach of contract settlement is to make the plaintiff whole - which basically means to put me back in the position I'd have been in if we hadnt entered a contract. Ie all expenses are included. Since this has dragged out, I expect nothing less. So far I havent included either labor or attorney fees, I'll be adding them shortly as well. If he wants to avoid a court judgement he knows he can do that - he's simply trying to do it at my expense, I wont agree to that.

Yeah, I know - its a business decision, take whatever $ I can get before his business goes belly up. It is a lot. The thing is, so sooner or later, in spite of what he may think, I'll get my $ back. I'm not a vengeful person, but I do refuse to be pushed around, and I do believe in justice. Sooner or later I'll get it, its just a matter of how long and how high the number climbs.

I have nothing to lose - he already cashed my checks - and this isnt costing me much to pursue. I am nothing if not stubborn and persistent.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

a few short answers

On the subject of the gag order: How would you feel if you got stuck with faulty equipment, then found out that some of us on the forum knew about it but kept our mouths shut? Do you really think I should have said nothing?

Who checks with the BBB anyway?

I do.
No, I'm not the boss of the BBB either.
The other thing is, the BBB isnt just a forum for complaints - a big part of what they do is to resolve disputes, so I went their prior to filing with the court system. He did not even respond.

Well, if he gives your money back is it resolved to your satisfaction?

No. This situation also screwed up 2 charity commitments I had made, which has impacted my community. In addition, I cant afford two CC systems, so not having one is materially impacting my business.
At the moment I'm not going after damages; it would be over, but it doesnt mean I'd be satisfied.

I really think you need to revisit your opinion on the EVE system.

Actually I have always liked Jim and the EV system, he's been on my top 3 list since the beginning. I'm now considering taking a loan so I can afford another system - of course the interest on that loan will be added to my expenses.

Does JJJ have to keep his mouth shut regarding that involved article you wrote?

Nope, I'm not the boss of JJJ either.
In fact, he has asked me in the past if I'd consider writing follow-up articles - you know, how did things work out, lessons learned, etc. And wow, I sure have learned a couple lessons this time.

 

[Foam1]

I see things like court,BBB,gag order......
I think the question that I have is why didn't the system not work for you.
I have had the original Mag Card system in many of my sites for over five years now and I am very pleased with it.
Gary

 

[thoffmanjr]

I'm wondering the same thing Gary (foam1) is? Why didn't it work? We have 6 of the same systems since early 2005 and they have been virtually flawless. They were also the only self service credit card company that would allow count up and discount pricing for our customers if they keep the clock running.

Why isn't there an explaination at the beginning of this thread as to the problem?

 

[Indiana Wash]

The standard breach of contract settlement is to make the plaintiff whole - which basically means to put me back in the position I'd have been in if we hadnt entered a contract. Ie all expenses are included. Since this has dragged out, I expect nothing less. So far I havent included either labor or attorney fees, I'll be adding them shortly as well. If he wants to avoid a court judgement he knows he can do that - he's simply trying to do it at my expense, I wont agree to that.

Good luck with that. Let me know if you hear of anyone being made whole by a law suit. I.E. all expenses included. If I were him, I would push the issue. You have the burden of proof. I would make every objection and complete full discovery. Various evidentiary objections may be made to exclude or minimize adverse evidence. If you push this to trial with an attorney, you will be lucky to complete it for less than $5000. Also, in most states you will not receive attorney's fees.

BTW, you say the standard breach of contract settlement is to make the plaintiff whole? A settlement is typically made for less than the maximum judgment you can get. E.g. You could get made whole at a cost of $1,000,000. Why would the other side settle for $1,000,000 if that is the most you can get even if you win at trial?

I am not saying that you should settle, I am just saying that your expectations should be realistic. Believing that Plaintiff's are made completely whole by the judicial system is like believing that you see through people's clothing with those x-ray glasses in the backs of comic books.

 

[car washing systems inc]

Who made this credit card system ? What type of meter boxes do you have ?

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Why isn't there an explaination at the beginning of this thread as to the problem?

Because this thread is a status update, and a request for advice/opinions.
But in hindsight I agree, it would have been helpful - here's a link to the BBB info. Click on "more" under "complaint status" to see the details.
http://app.alaskaoregonwesternwashington.bbb.org/complaintreply/c/?cid=22181595&auth=igcw4v

I'm wondering the same thing Gary (foam1) is? Why didn't it work?

Suppose you buy a brand new car, to be delivered in 3 weeks. 3 months later it arrives, and to your dismay you find there are no tires, the car wont start, part of the transmission is missing, etc. After a month of not getting it to work, you ask for your money back, and the dealer says no.

Can you honestly tell me that you would care why he was unable to deliver?

So my short answer is, I dont know why he didnt deliver, and since this has gone on for almost 6 months now, I no longer care.

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Let me know if you hear of anyone being made whole by a law suit.

Ahhh, comic book xray glasses... wish they did work
Poor choice of words - what I meant to say was that the intent is to make the plaintiff whole, not that they are made whole.
You did miss my point though - I've already lost my money, and this isnt costing me much to pursue. So I have nothing to lose. Yes, I know that if it goes to court I might get less - but anything I do get at this point is a windfall, so if he want to avoid a court case I'm willing to do that, but it will follow the intent of the law, not what lawyers negotiate.

As far as the burden of proof, no worries there, he made that part easy.

 

[Indiana Wash]

OK, typical lawsuit. You sue, he files motion for extension of time. He answers and possibly counterclaims. You both submit your discovery, interrogatories and subpoenas. You both answer. You then conduct depositions. Depositions typically cost $500 to $1000 each. Both parties will have to be deposed as well as other witnesses or experts. After all of your discovery, you will be required to go to mediation. At mediation, you will be encouraged to settle your case. The mediator will explain the give and take of the legal process. Most mediations result in settlement. So here you are, another $3500 stuck right back where you started.

Just saying, if you can reach the same result $3500 earlier, why not? Of course, the economy is bad and lawyers need money too. You would probably be doing your patriotic duty to help rebuild the economy by spending the extra $3500 rather than saving it.

 

[kerryelizabeth]

WashTech

This is so interesting. We know of a couple people in Los Angeles who bought their systems and it destroyed their business. Things break and they can't get any support and either go under (in 1 case) or have to tear out the stuff and put new stuff in. This was the case for bill acceptors, timers, vacuums, etc... Seems to be really schlocky stuff and the guy doesn't seem to care about his customers. Really sad to see what happened to the folks down here. Buyer beware!

 

[rzeavy]

The first CC system for "Mag Card" was developed by Paul Brookover.
I was the first one in So. CA. to install it and was very happy with the equipment and the service.
Than Paul sold the company to Zack and the service was terrible. I had to make several 'phone calls to get any of them returned with a system down and aggravated customers.
When I sold the car wash at the end of 2009, the CC system was giving me problems and I told the new buyer that he should get another system and I'll pay for half of it, which I did.

 

[pitzerwm]

rzeavy, You might submit a review on Zack, here is the link http://www.autocareforum.com/reviews/review_entry.php?ref=74687265652d6569676874 these are indexed on Google, you might help other people.