How much preping is needed

[Eric H]

I am normally down in the SS area but have a exterior question...
I ran a tunnel from '98- 2000. We usually prepped the front and backs of all vehicles with additional attention given to problem areas on an as needed basis. We were doing front and backs mostly to get good cleaning of grills and license plate areas.
Today I went thru the exterior tunnel near my house. I noticed they scrubbed the entire truck in front of me, front, back, both sides, and the rear window. They did the same on my wife's van.
Should a tunnel equipped with side to side mitter, rocker brush, side wraps, and front to back mitter require the attendant to wash the entire vehicle before sending it thru the tunnel? The tunnel I ran had one more set of side brushes but we certainly did not need to scrub every vehicle to get it clean and much of the prep we were doing was just for show.

 

[smokun]

Duh...?

With all due respect, what would make you ask such a question?!!!

Vehicles are prepped when they need to be prepped to render a vehicle acceptably clean to the marketplace's standards. If the equipment isn't cleaning, I guess you must pick up the slack and fill in manually for the lack of automatic washing capabilities... just as many feel the need to assist with hand-drying when an unacceptably wet vehicle comes out of the air dryer area.

Some operators wind up prep-washing the car manually... before they send it through their automatic process... simply because their system fails the task. Consequently, they do whatever they have to do to get vehicles acceptably clean & dry. The alternative: Lose ciustomers and go out of business.

Ideally, an operator should have the equipment capability to avoid all manual prepping and drying. But many operations fall short of that ideal. So, an operator must decide on the standard for his wash, and act accordingly. Obviously, the wash was poorly planned by the owner, poorly designed & supplied by the equipment supplier, and as a result, operates poorly... and is probably run poorly.

Sorry, but reading such a bizarre question on a professional carwash forum seemed mind-boggling to me.

 

[Eric H]

With all due respect, what would make you ask such a question?!!!

I asked because scrubbing an entire car seems like a waste of labor when there seems to be adequate equipment to do the job.

Sorry, but reading such a bizarre question on a professional carwash forum seemed mind-boggling to me.

I'm not sure why you would bother to respond. I prefaced my post by stating that I operate a SS and have been out of the exterior business for over 10 years. I'm trying to understand what is going on at this wash. I thought that is what this forum is for: learning how to do things better.

Vehicles are prepped when they need to be prepped to render a vehicle acceptably clean to the marketplace's standards. If the equipment isn't cleaning, I guess you must pick up the slack and fill in manually for the lack of automatic washing capabilities...

simply because their system fails the task. Consequently, they do whatever they have to do to get vehicles acceptably clean & dry.

I suppose that I must not have been clear in my original question. "Should a tunnel equipped with side to side mitter, rocker brush, side wraps, and front to back mitter require the attendant to wash the entire vehicle before sending it thru the tunnel?" I think what I was trying to get at was: Is this a chemical issue and/or an equipment issue? I understand that when you are producing cars that are not acceptable you do what you need to do to correct that.
I never recall washing an entire vehicle before processing. I know that other washes in the area apply a high pressure prep to the entire vehicle before processing but I have never seen them scrub an entire vehicle.
So once more: Should a tunnel equipped with side to side mitter, rocker brush, side wraps, and front to back mitter require the attendant to wash the entire vehicle before sending it thru the tunnel?

 

[smokun]

Huh? Anyone have a clue?

So once more: Should a tunnel equipped with side to side mitter, rocker brush, side wraps, and front to back mitter require the attendant to wash the entire vehicle before sending it thru the tunnel?

NO!

Once again, WHY would anyone ask a question like that, knowing that automated equipment is typically purchased to eliminate the need for manual washing? Should manual washing be required? NO. Might manual prepping be needed? Maybe, unless the wash tunnel was designed properly... and the right equipment was selected & installed properly... and the conveyor was moving at the correct speed... and the chemicals were job-matched and allowed to dwell... and everything else was effectively implemented.

That same logic is anticipated when self-serve and inbay systems are evaluated. Done right, systems work well. However, when done poorly, the operation is fatally flawed.

Am I the only one reading this absurd question... who thinks this logic should be blatantly obvious to anyone in the carwash business?

 

[MEP001]

Am I the only one reading this absurd question... who thinks this logic should be blatantly obvious to anyone in the carwash business?

So much for "all due respect".

 

[MikeV]

Really, Steve, Eric is just asking a question that may be totally obvious to you, but not to him...lighten up.

 

[smokun]

Sorry.

The question obviously struck a sore nerve.

But instead of rendering me speechless,
it provoked an impulsive and unfortunately hurtful outburst.

SORRY for any inflicted pain and suffering...
caused by my knee-jerk overreaction.

 

[mac]

I have a better question. Should someone think of doing business with another who fires off a knee jerk reaction in a condescending manner? I would think that if you do respond unprofessionally, you should keep your business name off the response if your possible future customers might be reading it.

 

[Chiefs]

Well said Mac.

To answer Eric's question, NO they should not have to prep the entire vehicle. The only prepping that should be done are the nooks and crannies on the front and rear of every vehicle that equipment simply cannot reach. Most times, especially in the winter season, neither high pressure nor cloth equipment can completely clean the hard to reach areas around license plates, under front bumpers, grills, etc. Of course, you also have the added obstacles of snow and ice to contend with.

Steve, you are so great about criticizing operators who do prep - even limited preppping, always alluding to "proper equipment" to eliminate the need to prep.
Please with all of your expertise, do let the cat out of the bag and inform us heathens of just one or two pieces of those equipment that will clean these recessed areas 100%. So far, the only pieces of equipment that I have seen that will get recessed areas 100% clean on every size vehicle we wash is an employee with a hogs hair brush and good prep solution.

However, we would all like to know what the "God" of car washing knows. Or do we simply have to buy your book for $199 or whatever you are selling it for today?

 

[chadrpalmer]

said equipment would be created by Bob Hodge. At my former employer, two locations,we washed 350,000 plus cars per year, zero cars prepped. yes, zero. it can be done. and not for three bucks a car, either. it takes huge amounts of time and energy, for sure, and plenty of tweaking of both chemicals and equipment. but impossible? definitely not.

 

[dewey9876]

said equipment would be created by Bob Hodge. At my former employer, two locations,we washed 350,000 plus cars per year, zero cars prepped. yes, zero. it can be done. and not for three bucks a car, either. it takes huge amounts of time and energy, for sure, and plenty of tweaking of both chemicals and equipment. but impossible? definitely not.

I am sure it is possible but not everyone has the space for that much equipment. There are 40 ft tunnels and 250 ft tunnels and everything in between. Also I see that you are in Texas, I would think that different parts of the country have different challenges. I am in New England and snow, ice, salt, etc. are real challenges!

Also is it not possible that his equipment does perform just fine but he wants to set himself apart from his compitition. Or maybe his customers expect it and volume dropped when he tried not prepping? It could be he is too cheap to pay for quality chemicals or who knows but not a dumb question. There is no such thing as a dumb question, ... Remember

 

[smokun]

Mac: Ouch! Feel better now?

I seldom criticize operators who choose to prep, but rather point out that prepping can be avoided if advanced planning is exercised. The technology does exist to render a vehicle clean and dry. The challenge is to make the commitment to achieve it. That takes the commitment to engineer the washing & drying process effectively... before you choose, buy and install the equipment.

The planning process for designing an effective conveyorized wash is critical. Considering all the variables before you build... or even upgrade your tunnel choices makes good sense. But unfortunately too many operators allow equipment to be shoe-horned into a building with little regard for safeguarding an effective washing & drying process. I truly feel that totally automated washing & drying is achievable if two things are embraced: proper planning and operational discipline.

Technology is constantly improving our ability to render vehicles clean and dry. But if an operator ignores the quantifiable relationship of synergizing proper water usage, optimized conveyor speed, job-matched chemicals, dwell-time, precision-friction contact, and drip-space, compromised efficacy will result.

So Bill, to use one of your famously graphic quotes: "Please don't p*** on my head, and try to convince me it's raining!"

Enough said?

Best regards...

 

[smokun]

To Prep... Or NOT To Prep

Prepping requires labor... and labor is costly. In certain cases, no prepping can be even costlier if the desired result requires manual washing to fill in the gaps left by the automated equipment.

Prepping is a necessary evil for some existing operations, but I caution every operator who chooses to do so: Once you start, it is very, very difficult to stop... without customers feeling the loss. Some feel like a "value-promise" has been broken!

And whenever you have a single attendant prepping, complete consistency on both sides of a vehicle is too often sporadic. And customers who get short-changed by an attendant who fails to deliver consistently good results wind up disappointed.

The biggest challenge in prepping is consistency. Consistency in the delivery of task... and the consistency of always offering the same balanced level of service. When automation gradually replaced guys in rubber boots with mitts, we really appreciated the consistency of one side of the vehicle being a carbon copy of the other side (if the stuff was working & adjusted properly). The cost of upgrading to automation was justified because the process was uniform. Okay, you needed more floor space to provide ample replication of friction contact, but it was justifiable. Equipment technology got better and better, all driven by the desire to eliminate the cost and aggravation of labor.

Prepping can be eliminated. Those who choose to continue prepping usually do so by choice, be it economic or something else. But in most cases, it is a choice decision.

Inbay automatics are a perfect example of consistency. They operate with built-in disciplines as guidelines. Speed, process, job-matched chemicals, coverage, and time-sensitivity. Conveyorized tunnels should exercise a similar level of discipline.

 

[chadrpalmer]

new to texas, actually...my former employer was in kansas, plenty of snow and ice...that being said, yes, a 220 foot conveyor helps a heck of a lot! one key factor that i believe "chiefs" has often beat the drum on, and that i fully agree with, is massive high pressure rinsing BEFORE "cleaning" the car, be it equipment or prepping.

 

[Chiefs]

Chemicals and high pressure alone cant get the 100% of the dirt off a vehicle. Much less so on the film that remains behind and when the high pressure fails to get it all off and the cloth fails to get it all off, then it remains on the vehicle.

Also, how in the world in a place like Denver can you get away without any prepping when you are facing vehicles with ice and snow on them or heavy mud and considering you also get vehicles in a variety of conditions, some of which get washed 3-4 times a year whether they need it or not and still get anywhere near 100% customer satisfaction?

We'd all love to hear how. Lots of boasting, but no concrete solutions.

 

[rph9168]

Since there are so many factors in the wash process to consider it is impossible to answer whether one should or should not prep or if one needs to or not.

Personally I feel that there is no equipment configuration that can do all vehicles without prepping. With the multitude of designs and varying degree of the condition of the vehicles, prepping is the only way to insure the best possible cleaning. Some equipment packages along with good chemistry do an very effective job without prepping but they still are machines designed to duplicate the process without regard to unique conditions of the vehicle (excess soils or unusual design features).

To me, prepping is a matter of personal preference of the operator and how well they feel their equipment package does the job. If they want to spend the extra money for labor and materials in an effort for them in their own mind to do the best job possible for their wash it is their choice. If they prefer not to prep and feel that do an acceptable job with their equipment package that too is their choice. In either case, the ultimate judge will be the customer who will either continue using the wash or chose another one that they feel does the job. One thing for certain - once you start prepping it is extremely difficult to just prep some vehicles and not others or stop it altogether.

Whether an operator choses to prep or not to prep depends on how well they feel their equipment processes the vehicles, what their pricing structure is and their customers' perception of cleanliness. Operators offering a $3 base wash can't afford the labor that those offering a $10 base wash. Most customers that purchase a $3 wash aren't expecting as much as those purchasing a $10 one.

Bottom line, their really is no right or wrong answer to prepping. Whatever meets the needs of the operator and satisfies their customers is the best way to operate their wash.

 

[Chiefs]

Please Steve,

Pointing to in-bay automatics? I've never been through one (especially touchless) that can even come close to the quality of a tunnel.

As an operator, you either have to accept less than 100% customer satisafcation and make it up by offering a lower price in exchange for higher wash volume, or go the other way and ensure 100% customer satisfaction and get customers to pay for it.
The decision comes down to the kind of car wash you want to operate.

Again, prepping should only consist those areas (front and rear) that are hardest to clean and for extra-ordinary condiitons that on-line solutions and equipment cannot totoally address (mud, bird crap, heavy bugs, snow, and ice). I mean how many tunnels in Florida don't prep love bugs, or northeast car washes leave snow and ice on vehicles and still produce clean cars?

Again, no specifics, just boasting.

 

[chadrpalmer]

chiefs, a long time ago i invited you to visit travel clean...never met you. they (formerly we) worked very hard to make the wash prepless, and did succeed. Bob Hodge's bug scrubber, bar none, is the best piece of equipment i ever personally saw clean off bugs. amazing man, i feel privelaged to have met him. no boasting, only facts here. my last full year with travel clean, we washed 200,000 cars and never prepped. never. that was with a seven dollar base. huge financial investment in chemicals and equipment, but it has proved worthwhile. heated entry for lining up really gets the snow and ice melting, sure, an occasional car has to go thru again, but not very often. the numbers themselves prove the success. the product we offered was satisfactory to enough people to make it a successful business, and i guess thats the bottom line. i dont promote or discourage non-prepping, the store i run now, we prep, half the conveyor lenght, less equipment, of course we prep. each store stands on its own as to what it needs, what the people want, and how the product comes out.

 

[mac]

Here's another way to look at prepping by comparing washing a car to eating out. McDonalds has made a lot of money by offering its food without manual labor. Such things as waiters, wine stewards, and bartenders. Yes, you go through quick and that empty feeling is placated. A nice restaurant has someone to park your car, meet and greet you at the door, waiters to explain the menu selections, a sommelier to offer the right wine, and a nice dessert lady. You pay a lot more at the nice place, but no one is forcing you to go there. Some people just prefer places that have more of the human interaction. But some people seem to just dismiss this aspect of business because they are smarter than us. And yes, I do feel better.

 

[Washmee]

Here's another way to look at prepping by comparing washing a car to eating out. McDonalds has made a lot of money by offering its food without manual labor. Such things as waiters, wine stewards, and bartenders. Yes, you go through quick and that empty feeling is placated. A nice restaurant has someone to park your car, meet and greet you at the door, waiters to explain the menu selections, a sommelier to offer the right wine, and a nice dessert lady. You pay a lot more at the nice place, but no one is forcing you to go there. Some people just prefer places that have more of the human interaction. But some people seem to just dismiss this aspect of business because they are smarter than us. And yes, I do feel better.

At the end though, your not hungry any more when you leave both places. The main difference is the amount of money left in your pocket when you walk out the door. Like alot of other things in society today, price is more important than quality. To most consumers, a carwash is nothing more than a commodity that has a limited life and should be purchased as cheaply as possible.