Spot Free Pump Short Cycling during Foam Brush

[Bubbles Galore]

It's supposed to, but I've seen all sorts of weird problems occur if the 24V transformers aren't in phase. It's easy to check and correct, and seems like a probable culprit since it's happening on only one bay that has had something changed.

Try just swapping the hot and common to the door.

I talked to Jim over at Etowah and he said it could be a grounding issue. He said a good way to test is to hold the door so that it is not in contact with the box and try the foam brush and see if the pump turns on.

Thoughts?

 

[MEP001]

It shouldn't be a grounding issue because your 24V doesn't really have a common side. Just like a 240V motor runs off two legs of opposing 120V AC, your 24V transformers are outputting two opposing legs of 12V AC that combined are 24V. So what do you ground?

Have you checked the 24V between the bays as I've suggested?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

I am going to check it tonight since I had to come back to my dayjob today. I will try and post some pictures too that may help explain things a little better.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Ok, I just got up to the wash and did as Dan suggested and with the foam brush running in the problem bay, along with the spot free pump running, I checked the voltages. From the Hot in bay 1 to the common in bay 3, I had 24 volts...the hot in bay 1 to the common in any of the other bays read in voltage varying from 2-5 volts...so this means that I have a short somewhere then?

 

[Bubbles Galore]

MEP - I just checked the phasing and everything checked out at zero between the commons and between the hots...

 

[Bubbles Galore]

I just finished up a little more troubleshooting and this is what I found:

- Disconnecting the signal wire for the spot free from the meter box to the bay had no effect, i.e. the foam brush and the spot free pump were still running.

- Disconnecting the signal wire for the foam brush from the meter box to the bay didn't turn on the spot free pump, would this allow me to rule out the rotary switch as the culprit since if it were a short in the switch it should have still turned the pump on regardless of whether or not the foam brush were actually on?

 

[MEP001]

Try swapping the hot and common output from the transformer to the problematic bay.

It's not a short, otherwise the solenoid would open too.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Checking now...

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Nope, spot free is still running with the foam brush...

 

[MEP001]

Well that completely eliminates cross-phases.

I'm pretty much at a loss at this point. I don't know exactly how the logic controller works, so I don't know if it could be the problem, but that would be the next place I'd look.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

Well boys, the dunce cap can be firmly placed on my head this evening...my delay on make switch for my foam brush was shorting out on a solenoid for bay 1 since the mounting for the switch didn't really hold it in place all that well...F#$^ S*&# D!@%



At least it's fixed...



Note to self: check the ridiculously easy S*** first...every time...

 

[car washing systems inc]

What kind of pump stands do you have?

 

[MEP001]

Glad you found it - at least that explains why the solenoid wasn't coming on with the pump.

 

[mjwalsh]

Floating neutral?

It shouldn't be a grounding issue because your 24V doesn't really have a common side. Just like a 240V motor runs off two legs of opposing 120V AC, your 24V transformers are outputting two opposing legs of 12V AC that combined are 24V. So what do you ground?

Have you checked the 24V between the bays as I've suggested?

Mep001 & hopefully some more understanding,

No offense & I know Bubbles said that all is well now but ------

I have been told by an electronic engineer that if you measure 12 volts on each side that it means that the voltage is "floating" which is less desirable than being able to measure 24VAC to neutral & zero to neutral on the other side. The 24 VAC happens when one side of the 2 low voltage terminals is bonded to a neutral.

Hopefully someone can clarify this a little more.

MJ

 

[MEP001]

I have been told by an electronic engineer that if you measure 12 volts on each side that it means that the voltage is "floating" which is less desirable than being able to measure 24VAC to neutral & zero to neutral on the other side. The 24 VAC happens when one side of the 2 low voltage terminals is bonded to a neutral.

I don't know whether it's more or less desirable, but that's how D/H equipment is done. Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, what I was asking him to do was to make sure that when reading the "hot" from bay 1 and the "hot" from bay 2 there should be a reading of zero volts, and the same between the "common" sides. 15 years ago the big thing was eliminating the bladder tank and pressure switch and installing a diode box to turn the motor on when called for, and it required the "common" side of all the bays to be interconnected. If that was done when the transformers were out of phase it would cause all sorts of unusual things. You would think it would smoke all sorts of components and wiring, but it never did.

 

[Bubbles Galore]

What kind of pump stands do you have?

D/H - Ginsan circa 1990

 

[car washing systems inc]

D/H - Ginsan circa 1990

Looks like you found the problem no need to go further, good job