Spot Free Installation Questions

[2Biz]

I have a Dultmeier 4 bay system that I want to start installing in the near future. The P.O. bought it several years ago and didn’t install it. After going through the instructions (which are not as clear and thorough as I’d like) I have a few questions.

First off, I’m assuming the best place to “Tee” the SPR into the HP line would be in the manifold above the bay? Correct? If so, I’ll need to make allowances for that.

I do have a water softener which I’ve read is a good thing when running an RO system. One thing I’m unclear on, though, is what the PPM’s or TDS’s should be? What are good and favorable readings after the softener and after the RO System? I need to get a good tester to see what my starting points are. Its possible, that the softener works well enough that hooking up the SPR will be a mute point, but might be a good selling point that will help us to raise prices?

I did multiple searches here on the forum, but unfortunately (3) letter (TDS, PPM) searches didn’t turn up anything. For those of you who have installed your own system, what are the things that stand out that gave you problems that I might need to know about. I’m the type that likes to be prepared before any major installation like this. My level of confidence is a “10”…But my success rate is usually somewhat less than that!

I guess my final question at this time would be: Is it wise to install this piece of equipment? Or am I asking for problems and costs that will be hard to recover? There are 3 washes within our corporation limits and the population is less than 4,000. Our town is the county seat, so we get lots of traffic. Our wash is more in-town than the other 2, and located next to the schools and county offices on “Main Street”. We do a fair amount of business, but then again our prices are lower than the other 2 washes. Our wash is older. I’m thinking if we add a few extra services, maybe we can raise prices and still get the business. We also have a Tri-Foam system to install, again that the P.O. bought and never installed. Its not that we have to lay out a bunch of cash to install this equipment, but am I asking for more trouble than it will be worth? Sorry for such a long post, but I’m concerned about lots of things going into this. Your thoughts???

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Here are a few quick answers that might help...

First off, I’m assuming the best place to “Tee” the SPR into the HP line would be in the manifold above the bay? Correct? If so, I’ll need to make allowances for that.

Correct. Be sure to add a check valve.

Its possible, that the softener works well enough that hooking up the SPR will be a mute point,

No - soft water is measured in grains of hardness (ppm), spot free water is measured in TDS. Soft water and SFR are 2 different things - soft water will leave spots, SFR will not. Big difference in the customer's eyes

I guess my final question at this time would be: Is it wise to install this piece of equipment?

ABSOLUTELY install the SFR and the TF! That's a no brainer IMO, I would not have any concerns (unless there's something you are not telling us).

The capital investment is already made, install it and sell the product. Especially since you have a good deal of competition - offering additional services will definitely improve your competitive position.

 

[2Biz]

ABSOLUTELY install the SFR and the TF! That's a no brainer IMO, I would not have any concerns (unless there's something you are not telling us).

Thanks for the reply!

I've pretty much laid it out on the table, no suprises. We bought this wash in January and so far its not panning out to the numbers (Tax Returns) the P.O. furnished for the last three years. I know we haven't had it long and shouldn't be making comparisons just yet. Its a little scary making these changes knowing it will cost more to operate and comparing that with what we are taking in right now. Then again, the past few months the weather has been less than steller! I believe there was only (2) days in April that it hasn't rained here! Plus gas just hit $4.15 a gal yesterday....Not good....

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Sometimes I just need a little nudging to keep me headed in the right direction.

 

[2Biz]

While preparing for my SFR install, I noticed I don’t have a CV in my hi-pressure line that would prevent backflow to the pump and holding tanks. I have a Mark VII stand with hot and cold water holding tanks. Gravity feed to the pumps. I have all the other necessary CV’s in the weep, LP air and liquid lines, and will have a CV in the SFR line at the boom manifold. I’m concerned with the added pressure of the SFR (200psi) that I will get back flow through the HP line and through my pumps.

Does anyone have a CV in their HP line and does it cause any issues with pressure or flow? Or what’s the best way to prevent back-flow through the HP line when plumbing SFR? I don’t want to cause any performance issues or make it hard on my pumps.

 

[MEP001]

You don't need a check valve on the high-pressure line. The spot free pressure on the pump won't harm it. It's rated for at least 2000 PSI.

If the high-pressure pump is in good service, there won't be any backflow through it and into the tanks. If there is, adding a check valve is not the proper solution.

 

[2Biz]

I'm wanting to add a large reject water holding tank (100-150 gallon) as part of my SFR installation and bypass my current rinse water holding tank. I have a gravity feed system which might simplify things. I'm wondering what's the best, most trouble free, method of maintaining the city pressure water level in the tank? I'm thinking this level should be about 25% of the tanks capacity.
What are you guys using? Mechanical float valve? Electric float switch and solenoid? I'm all ears!

 

[MEP001]

I use Watermaster float valves and have very low failure rates with them. Whether any valve will last for you seems to depend on water pressure and water quality. I tried the Roberts float valve and the seat got eroded away in a month. I know people who have nothing but trouble with the Watermaster and the Roberts last for years.

My thoughts are that you'd have less trouble with a float switch and solenoid to keep the tank from running empty. If you use any float valve, it will have to be low in the tank and completely submerged most of the time. It will make servicing the valve very difficult.

 

[2Biz]

Thanks for the info Mep...More on that later....Another issue came up today. My RO system is a Dultmeier 4 bay that produces 600 gallons per day. I had to call them to clearify the directions for the Omron timer to backflush the main membrane. During the conversation the technician asked how long the system has been sitting without being hooked up. My guess was about 2-3 years....He said the main membrane was no longer good and needed replaced....Is this true? If so, why?

 

[MEP001]

If it dried out, it's shot. If mildew or algae grew on it, it's shot. But don't replace it because someone told you it's bad without checking it. Just hook it up and let it run for a while and test the quality.

 

[2Biz]

Is there a rule of thumb or claculation to deteremine the amount of reject water you need to run through a Membrane based on the TDS of incoming water?

The TDS of my incoming water is 100-110 PPM. Hardness is less than 1 grain and chlorine is non existant after the softener, carbon tank, and pre-filter. I would think you would need to run less reject water through a membrane at 100 ppm v/s another system with 1000 ppm or higher incoming water. But I don't know and can't seem to find any data on this?

Runing reject at 2 to 1 is giving me 0 ppm water (2 parts reject to 1 part permeate)...2 to 1 is what Dultmeier suggested, but they could not offer a suggestion based on the incoming water quality. Just a general setting....

 

[MEP001]

The reject ratio is more a matter of the layout of the system than the incoming TDS. If your system recirculates a portion of the reject, it's correct to have it reject at 1:1 because the fast movement of water through the membranes keeps them clean. If it's straight through and down the drain, you'll want it at least 2:1.

Is yours a Dultmeier system? They're not set up to recirculate any reject IIRC.

It's very easy to add a recirculating valve, and it typically will improve the amount of product as well as reduce the wasted water.

 

[2Biz]

Your right, My system is a Dultmeier....4 bay self serve...It doesn't recirculate any of the reject. It all goes down the drain. Wouldn't be a big deal if I had a reject storage tank...Stage (2) of the project....

Is there a schematic of the recirculating valve anywhere here or online that you know of? I found an RO system that has this feature, but not documented in detail...Its a "WaterLovers Model 2200 and 4400" ....It says Permeate goes up from 33% to 66% using the recirculting valve.

 

[2Biz]

Just found the link. Its a Ginsan:

http://www.ginsan.com/techspecs/WaterLovers_RO_Manual_2200-4400.pdf

 

[pitzerwm]

From our Library:

http://autocareforum.com/Articles/howto/Galensrowater.html

 

[MEP001]

Recirculating a portion of the reject through the membranes is a simple matter of adding a tee before the reject adjustment, adding a second adjustment and returning that to the inlet of the pump. It's not rocket surgery.

I prefer to use a bypass regulator somewhere - since most systems use a simple valve for control to the drain, I use a regulator on the return line to the pump. That way if the flows change (and they will eventually) the pressure on the system won't get too high.

 

[DiamondWash]

Put some pictures in the Picture Gallery here on the forum.

 

[2Biz]

Mep....

How do you make adjustments so you have the same amount of return as you do reject using only one reject flow meter? I'm scratching my head on this one.....Or do you add another flow meter so you can monitor both flow rates?

 

[MEP001]

I've done it with a cup and a stopwatch and timed how long each takes to fill the cup, but flowmeters on both product and reject makes it easier.

 

[2Biz]

Do you need any check valves to keep water from flowing where it doesn't need to, like back the water supply line. I have my ER water pressure set at 40#....

 

[MEP001]

No, the pump can't send water back the way it came.