Water Reclaim - What is the best system?

[washnvac]

I prefer baffles. Just like a septic tank on a residential property; it helps in getting the solids separated out. No real additonal expense. The last ones I installed in 2005, cost $150 more additional. I like 1500 , 1000, 1000 set up, all with single baffles.

 

[mac]

Not sure he wants to explain why, or can. But then again, I'm just a small pea in a pod.

 

[mac]

Washnvac, thanks for your comments. One of the benefits of visiting here is that it's interesting to hear about some aspect of other industries that relates to ours. If you live your adult life engaged only in carwashing, not only will you be the most avoided person at a social gathering, but you also don't see how everyone else does Residential septic tanks are that in this case. I would guess that there are at least 10,000, maybe 100,000 times more residential septic systems than car wash reclaim systems. And they all use baffles. Mine does.

 

[RykoPro]

No baffles in my septic tank and its only a few years old. Like I said if the system wont work with out baffles then you need baffles. We have only used the Ryko and Pur clean systems, neither of which require baffles.

 

[readydave8]

80% reclaim

I'm in NE Georgia and can't say that I've seen a reclaim system work on hand bays that really worked. 80% is what we were promised, the foul 20% more than overcame the theoretically clean 80%.

One company mentioned sold a system to a then-customer, customer did every tweak and upgrade suggested by reclaim company, never could produce usable water. If the water stinks the customers leave. He finally switched back to city water, reclaim system turned into $50,000 freeze weep system.
So without a doubt if anyone is considering reclaim, go to a carwash that's using a reclaim system (and not one of the many where the reclaim equipment is in place to satisfy local authorities but not in use). Believe only what you see in real life.

 

[Greg Pack]

I tried on ozone based system back in 2003. In less than a year it became the most expensive piece of unused equipment I have ever owned. It scarred me so bad against I probably won't try another until forced to do so.

Between paying 25K for the system, higher electrcity costs for running circ pump 24 hours/day, paying more for "reclaim compatible" chemistry AND accepting their lower level of performance of cleaning, cleaning walls and equipment more often, and changing those nasty ass filter bags, I think I'll just pay a bit more for fresh water and call it a day.

 

[RykoPro]

Even though our systems do not have "filter bags" (that does sound gross) to clean, I would also go with fresh water. I have seen people install reclaim just to avoid a high sewer tap in fee only to turn off the reclaim system soon after the wash is open.

 

[readydave8]

Reclaim Industry Not Responding

I found it interesting that manufacturers and venders of reclaim systems are not posting to this thread defending their systems.

So is the consensus that water reclaim is a good thing as long as one doesn't try to wash cars with the water?

 

[pitzerwm]

I don't allow self promotion on the forum and I have them pretty well trained.

The car wash environment is a pretty tough challenge. Since they aren't mandated yet most places, people aren't going to buy them. When I was in AU, they were mandated but none of them worked very well, so they put them in got the permits and then turned them off.

Each company claims that theirs work, obviously some do and some not so well.

 

[RykoPro]

We actually have sites that want them the reclaim running. When the reclaim goes down, the water bill goes up and the people who pay the bills notice the cost increase. Recirculating the water to introduce oxygen is the key to keeping the smell down.

 

[mac]

We are really talking about two different applications with reclaim. Conveyor washes have been using them for years with success. You can control the odor fairly easily and much of a tunnell wash just needs water that doesn't stink or have rocks in them. For in bay automatics, especially touckless, I've had good luck cutting the water consumption about 50 to 60%. Friction washes, not nearly that much. And self serve, forget about it. Not worth the bother.

 

[readydave8]

We actually have sites that want them the reclaim running. When the reclaim goes down, the water bill goes up and the people who pay the bills notice the cost increase. Recirculating the water to introduce oxygen is the key to keeping the smell down.

Yes I agree that recirculating the water to introduce oxygen can keep the smell down, although I've seen it done more with ozone.

But in Georgia this means that the water is not sitting still long enough for the red clay to settle out.

I can make water look clean and smell bad or look dirty and not stink;
what I can't do is make water that looks clean and doesn't stink.

I know of 2 well-known reclaim system manufacturers that evidently can produce usable water in Florida but not in North Georgia.

 

[mac]

Readydave, out of curiosity, do you know how small the clay particles are? There are bag filters down to 5 microns and smaller. How are you filtering it out? I prefer the ozone gas to just blowing air around for odor. In FL it's warm all year, and sometimes hot. Air alone doesn't work here.

 

[readydave8]

Readydave, out of curiosity, do you know how small the clay particles are? There are bag filters down to 5 microns and smaller. How are you filtering it out? I prefer the ozone gas to just blowing air around for odor. In FL it's warm all year, and sometimes hot. Air alone doesn't work here.

yes I like ozone too

Apparently much smaller than 5 microns. I guarantee that water will go thru a 5 micron bag or filter and look dirty, put in a clear bottle and let set for a week and find clearer water and accumulation on bottom. This I know from personal observation, I'm not a chemist and can't say why, just that it does.

I beleive a reclaim system will work but not on the scale I've seen, cities can take muddy river water and produce drinking water. Give me 10 acres and $1 million and that's one thing, $40,000 and three 3000 gallon tanks and that's another.

And I stipulate that this may be a North Georgia situation, maybe they are producing hand-held car wash quality water in Florida or Australia, I can't say because I haven't seen it.

 

[rph9168]

A lot depends on the system and how much you are willing to pay for it. I have seem some systems so good that they are not connected to city sewers and others that were totally useless. I think ozone is important as well as an effective filtering system. Some can go down to as little as 1 -2 microns. Spargers seem to be a waste of money. There are systems that could take out the Georgia clay but you are talking $50,000+ and those that remove all or most of the chemicals and color $70,000+. Probably only really most effective in friction tunnels and not nearly as effective in automatics. As someone pointed out almost useless in a self service.

As with many things like quality equipment and chemicals you get what you pay for. Most of the companies that manufacture these units that have been around for a while offer several levels of ability. I would probably stay away from some of the newer companies until they have an established track record. I have seen several graphs on how long it takes to recovered the original investment and obviously it is much quicker in areas where there is high water and sewer rates along with having a busy wash.

Bottom line, if you want a really good system it will cost a lot. If you buy a cheap system it may satisfy local requirements but I almost guarantee it will not be very effective.

 

[mac]

Readydave, if I read your post correctly, you have three 3,000 gallon tanks? That's a lot of storage/settling. Most systems will have three 1,000 gallon tanks. Are there baffles in all the tanks? If not adding those to all tanks might be a cheap fix. They will decrease flow which will increase settling.

 

[readydave8]

Readydave, if I read your post correctly, you have three 3,000 gallon tanks? That's a lot of storage/settling. Most systems will have three 1,000 gallon tanks. Are there baffles in all the tanks? If not adding those to all tanks might be a cheap fix. They will decrease flow which will increase settling.

not mine a car wash I worked on a few years ago when I was service tech for a cw supply and service company.

I think I remembered #'s wrong, must have been 3 @ 1500 gallon tanks, baffle was open in middle for oil to float and sediment to sink

the car wash is closed, in part because reclaim system did not work.

 

[readydave8]

A lot depends on the system and how much you are willing to pay for it. I have seem some systems so good that they are not connected to city sewers and others that were totally useless. I think ozone is important as well as an effective filtering system. Some can go down to as little as 1 -2 microns. Spargers seem to be a waste of money. There are systems that could take out the Georgia clay but you are talking $50,000+ and those that remove all or most of the chemicals and color $70,000+. Probably only really most effective in friction tunnels and not nearly as effective in automatics. As someone pointed out almost useless in a self service.

As with many things like quality equipment and chemicals you get what you pay for. Most of the companies that manufacture these units that have been around for a while offer several levels of ability. I would probably stay away from some of the newer companies until they have an established track record. I have seen several graphs on how long it takes to recovered the original investment and obviously it is much quicker in areas where there is high water and sewer rates along with having a busy wash.

Bottom line, if you want a really good system it will cost a lot. If you buy a cheap system it may satisfy local requirements but I almost guarantee it will not be very effective.

Thank you for your informative answer. I beleive the reclaim systems I worked with cost $25-$40K--not sure because that wasn't my department, I was the guy in the pump room with an angry owner.

What's spargers?

 

[rph9168]

A sparger on a system simply is a recirculating pump attached to a spray head that sprays the recirculated water back into the tank. Basically it keeps the reclaim water recirculating while providing some aeration and is intended to help inhibit bacteria growth which causes most of the odor in reclaim water. It may help very little in a low volume situation where the water it not reused frequently but in most wash set ups it is not very effective in killing odor. It is kinda like a poor man's ozone treatment.

 

[Bob Koo]

I found it interesting that manufacturers and venders of reclaim systems are not posting to this thread defending their systems.

So is the consensus that water reclaim is a good thing as long as one doesn't try to wash cars with the water?

I am not one the manufacturer's that has not responded in this thread, but want to post my opinion.

Georgia clay, just like caliche clays founds in other parts of the United States can be a problem for a reclaim manufacter.
Clays can be a very, very small particle, such as talcum powder. Conventional filters such as a hydrocyclones or mechanical filters, just passe the particles through, they are too small. The particle size of a clay can be .xx to 3.0 microns. In car wash applications with a reclaim system and tanks, clays, in general, just takes time to settle for us to see clarity in the water that we reuse. Size and specific gravity (weight) are the primary factor to determine how much time it takes a particle to sink in a reclaim tank.

A wild card many operators encounter when looking the clarity of reclaim water can also, be dependent on the chemicals that are used in the wash process. The job of a Production wash chemical's in the wash process is to grab or dissolve dirts and oils. The quality of the production chemicals used in a wash can influence the clarity of reclaim water. Chemicals eventually die or run out of their reactive capabilites. A live chemical in a reclaim tank will continue to do it's job grabbing dirt and oil. On top of that as the chemical dies, they smell, welcome to the world of biodegradation.

Welcome to the world of Ozone, an oxidizer that has the capability to oxidize chemistry. Kill the chemical, the odor goes away. Plus the water can get clearer because the chemicals are not there anymore to grab and hold, dirt and oils. In many cases, some operators will find clear reclaim water, except where a severe load of clays can be found.

Just an opinion, I wanted to post.
Hope this helps