VFD on Pump Stand

[MEP001]

It would be nice get a better handle on the exact hz or pump speed's relationship to the volume both when the dump gun trigger is pulled (nozzle only) & when it is not pulled (as if there was no nozzle at all)

You seem to be missing the point of a VF drive in this case. You would control the pump speed to control the FLOW, which in turn determines pressure depending on the orifice. The pump's RPM and therefore the volume would have to be the same whether the dump gun's trigger is pulled or not. The use of a pressure transducer wouldn't even work in this case because as soon as the pressure is released the VFD would try to ramp up to full RPM to make the pressure and it would never achieve it until the trigger is pulled again. If you used the VFD to run the pump at a predetermined speed with a particular selection, then of course the flow would be the same whether the dump gun's trigger is pulled or released.

If you use the dump gun that we happen to have always used which has something to do with why we prefer them --- the behavior will be the opposite of what the regular trigger gun will do. When they let up the trigger the pressure will be less.

You seem to have failed to grasp the point again about controlling the pressure BEFORE it gets to the customer. If they have the full pressure available to them, why shouldn't they just use it all instead of letting some or most of it dump on the ground and splash their feet?

 

[mjwalsh]

More excitement & fun --- simpler & less money wasted?

If you used the VFD to run the pump at a predetermined speed with a particular selection, then of course the flow would be the same whether the dump gun's trigger is pulled or released.

That is the reflection of my evolved thoughts --- so we have common ground there. Tyler would NOT need to use a PLC or rerouting hi pressure solenoid either it seems. The normal check valves of course would be necessary though.

I am not saying this dump gun approach would be all "blue sky" --- noooo because he still needs to go through a process to get the optimum amount of chemical-water volumes & it would be nice to put a bit of air into the lines for the presoak & tire motor like most systems for a bit of a foaming effect. Also when the dump gun's trigger is released the amount of additional volume should be verified to see its range before getting too carried away.

If they have the full pressure available to them, why shouldn't they just use it all instead of letting some or most of it dump on the ground and splash their feet?

Very few customers let up on the trigger very often. The KleenRite branded dump gun that I linked to early in the thread is exactly the same as the Cat branded dump gun. The gun maintains enough pressure when the trigger is let up so it still shoots out on the vehicle. The trigger release is nice for the tire-motor option because it allows the air component to do more foaming. I use our 90 psi Flo-Jet tire-motor option often on my car's tires & that short term release of the trigger foams more but honestly does not splash chemical on my feet.

mike walsh king koin of bismarck

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

Seems a little salty. I didn't buy a 1 Bay SS 2 blocks from my house in a town of 350 people thinking that I would be able to quit my Full time job and retire off it's income at age 28. I don't own multiple car washes in a metropolitan area, and don't spend 50 hours a week at my wash. I do stop there seven days a week for 15 to 20 min. to rinse down the bay, check equipment, trash, and vacuum. I turn to people who do spend much more time at a wash for advice and direction. Not cynical comments about the size of my first business.

IMO the man of wax was not being salty, there was a lot of sage advice buried in his brief reply, which you apparently completely ignored. Dont be in such a hurry to take offense, I dont think it was intended.

 

[Waxman]

What I gave was good, honest advice.

With one bay, I'd concentrate more on revenue-enhancing items; credit card acceptance, foam guns, etc.

If my reply was 'too salty', your skin is too thin and you ned to touhen it up, because this is a tough business. You'll see.

 

[Randy]

When I was with the Nuclear Navy my mentor was Admiral Hiram Rickover. Has favorite saying was “KISS” or “ KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID” We could design and build some of the most complex operating systems known to man. The simplest systems were the ones that we used. With that being said a 1 bay car wash in small town America I would think a VFD system would be a little bit of over kill. I’d use a Procon pump for the RO and the Presoak system, with a 1 bay car wash you might be able to get by with 1 Procon pump for both systems. I bought a Procon (carbonator) pump/motor setup on EBay not too long ago for $49, most soda pop carbonator pumps are Procon.

 

[mjwalsh]

Extreme Relevantness????

When I was with the Nuclear Navy my mentor was Admiral Hiram Rickover. Has favorite saying was “KISS” or “ KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”

Randy & others,

Well said. We are just getting towards the end of a project requiring an extra high level of safety. The electronic engineer deeply involved who one of his specialties is safety basically told me the same thing. The more components the more points of failure & can actually create unnecessary problems --- a net loss of advantages.

Given Tyler's description of himself as a programmer & other skills etc. I actually am starting to think that the proven affordable VFD with an affordable proven dump gun with the few small affordable relays mounted on a din rail within the proper enclosure --- might be the best fit for him. As in my earlier posts on this thread --- some --- hopefully not too tough of testing &/or similar verification should occur as a prerequisite though.

For Waxman with the detail shop with its accompanying big ticket transactions I can see why he might suggest "credit card". I respectfully & honestly disagree that it would be a good fit for Tyler. A good percentage of us very experienced operators know there is a pretty good list of reasons why credit card acceptance would not be a good fit for his smaller operation.

What could help younger operators starting out like Tyler is dollar & future 2 dollar coin acceptors once the unhealthy emotional attachment to the paper dollar bill is no longer dominant. Five & ten dollar bills in those trusty Mars acceptors work pretty well if he takes that leap. At the same time it clearly is the better choice for taxpayers in general. Some studies & methodologies are better than others. Like most legislation there needs to be enough of us to be thinking clearly enough & making a joint effort to expose some of the intentional or unintentional lesser truths --- the long term net effect is what counts the most!

Besides it would really make my day --- if Tyler came back to Bill's forum "brief intermission with a pleasant sounding horse laugh" proving that my evolving thoughts were actually "relevant" & actually were "to the point"! Hey --- it might even inspire & encourage like some of my Canadian Friends like Ken-Pro have been known to do. Again if Tyler can accomplish with the KISS principle given his limited space etc --- then more power to him --- & his resources.

mike walsh king koin of bismarck

 

[tbarnard]

Waxman,

My skin is not too thin. I apologize for the previous reply. It is hard to tell in such a short post if there is a negative connotation or if you're simply short on time. I am trying to add revenue enhancing features, SFR and presoak. I think those would be my best options for my particular car wash setup. In my small wash it is better for me to keep the customer their longer and spend more time/money then run them thru as fast as I can as I almost never have a "line-up."

I do value all opinions given here, but as a new business, a small business I have to make the best judgement and go with what will work best for my particular setup that are within my small business budget.

I happen to have a full time job where i spend a lot of time around hydronic systems and VFDs. I did not know whether this would work or not. As i look into it deeper, it seems as though for the cost associated, i could either add a second unloader with a solenoid valve or go with an electric procon pump to get my low pressure functions to the bay cheaper and more reliably than using a VFD on my 310.

If i choose the procon pump, can someone direct me to a model number of a pump that would work?

Thanks again guys.

Tyler

 

[mjwalsh]

I would not rush too quickly

I do value all opinions given here, but as a new business, a small business I have to make the best judgement and go with what will work best for my particular setup that are within my small business budget.

If i choose the procon pump, can someone direct me to a model number of a pump that would work?

Thanks again guys.

Tyler

Tyler,

If you are going that route, I would suggest Flojets --- they take such tiny amounts of air & you really should have some air anyway. If you go with Procon --- it seems like it would make more sense with it dedicated to just the RO. I am not visualizing your system working with multiple selections with just one Procon.

An advantage to the VFD is that you could have a broader range of pressures that could be really appealing to you customers. For example some operators use 400 PSI for the RO which I can imagine is really liked by their customers.

Allow a bit of time to sketch out thoroughly what I suggested --- see how the component costs add up compared to the other approaches. Remember you have a bunch of intelligent inputs on a VFD to work with to tailor the different hz speeds. Figure out how tough it would be to communicate with someone who has tested something similar or how tough it would be to test it yourself. Maybe you could borrow a local person's spare VFD & do the testing that way.

I know we got by with running our foam brush system with a used dedicated older Cat piston pump running at slower than normal speed & power back in the seventies & eighties & it worked out better than anything else available on the market at that time!

Cat 310s are pretty tough as long they do not cavitate from starving the inlets etc. I would think that if you asked Cat Corp or Armitsu could give you a pumping curve chart so you would have a better sense as to the speed volume pressure relationships that the chart would show.

I honestly think that the system I suggest would work with just the one Cat 310 pump with the same number of check valves & small Kip solenoids & small Hydrominder stainless steel tanks for the presoak, foaming brush & if you decide tire-motor. The RO of course would require a much larger tank etc.

Let us know what kind of quote --- Custom Kraft eventually gives you & if their premade turn key system is too complex or whatever.

mike walsh king koin of bismarck

 

[2Biz]

I use a flojet on both FB and Presoak. At less than $100 for each flojet, I'm having a hard time figuring if it could be done any cheaper or trouble free. MJ is right about the amount of air needed. I have an 80 gallon tank on my compressor. Its rare that it kicks on when I'm there. I have 4 ss bays...