Does Touchless Clean?

[iwashcars]

I am looking to convert a full service hand car wash into something less labor intensive. Considering adding high pressure Touchless in place of the labor. My concern is that I may not be getting the cars as clean as I would like. The tunnel is only 70' long but we run a ver slow chain. Average days chain speed is about 50 cars per hour and busy day around 70 cars per hour.
Thank You

 

[Reds]

I think everyone will have a different opinion on this. I have 2 JC touchfree and am happy with them. I get lots of compliments from customers. But I don't pinch pennies on chemicals or p.m. and I spent a lot of time developing the "right" recipe. Once in a while I see a black car with baked on road film that does not come completely clean. But the number of complaints are very few and I have a lot of repeat business. I believe both friction and touchless each have there own positives and negatives. I work at the wash and do my own maintenance so my labor costs are zero. But you won't wash nearly as many cars as a tunnel will. If my market would support a tunnel I would have some kind of mini, or short, tunnel. So your labor cost will go down, but so will your gross sales.

 

[robert roman]

“I am looking to convert…. hand car wash into……less labor….” “Considering…Touchless”

“My concern is…..getting ….clean…...” “The tunnel is 70' long…..”

The first step in designing a wash system is property planning – width and depth. The reasoning is to match system with potential of site/location (property/market).

This is accomplished by designing system to handle demand during peak conditions – peak hour.

If the developer followed this guideline, I would suspect a peak hour or 50 or 60 cars with the additional capacity available for growth or slack.

This is based on rule of thumb a conveyor can produce 10 cars an hour for every ten feet of conveyor length.

If you want to keep friction or upgrade to hybrid (friction plus touch-less), this can be done within a 70’ length by installing a five-touch module with, say, high-pressure wheels.

If you want to convert to touch-less only, the primary constraint is conveyor/tunnel length because it correlates with time on machine.

There are many factors in touch-less cleaning but most important, in this case, are detergent and product water quality, dwell time (allows chemical reaction) and impingement (i.e. zero degree nozzles, fan spray, oscillation, etc.).

Here, dwell is most important because the tunnel length is fixed (it already exists).

So, if you calibrate a short conveyor to clean effectively, slowing down line operating speed so the chemical can react properly, end result might be insufficient capacity to satisfy demand during peak hour.

The consequences of this could be long waiting lines and lost business, both on a daily and annual basis.

So, do you automated with touch-less only at considerable capital cost plus greater utilities and chemical to produce dubious quality and less quantity

or

automate with friction at less capital cost that uses less utility and chemical than touch-less only to produce a known quality and greater quantity?

Hope this helps.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The issue for almost all in the automated industry is How clean is Clean? And How dry is Dry? At what cost.

If your price point is high enough and you are going to do some manual finishing at the exit end, that labor can resolve certain troublesome issues.

At one point I thought my tunnels were the only ones with issues when it came to frozen on Dirt, Baked on bird ppop and hardened tree sap.

Problems like those require special attention that a totally automated EE type tunnel cannot handle in a cost effective manner. You just deal with it as they arise. In some cases special equipment can be activated if the loader spots te issue. Some locations offer a free DIY prep area to deal with things like bugs.

Are you aware of any completely touchless tunnels within 500 miles of you? If so visit them. If not, you may find there is a reason for that.

 

[mac]

The short answer is yes, touchless does clean. You probably already even have a touchless automatic that cleans and dries very well. Just look at your dishwasher. On cars however you have to get the mechanics and chemistry right or all you will do is get a car wet. The other comments are right on.

 

[rph9168]

I agree with Earl. I have always felt that clean is really a perception. I remember a very successful operator that had six washes. The performance of his washes was less than what I would call clean but all his locations were busy even with some pretty stiff competition. What made him so successful wash the way he treated his customers. I think that they accepted the results of his washes because of the great experience they had at his wash. I am not so sure that would work in today's market as well as it did back then. I think today customers are much more performance oriented.

I also think what Bob said is very important to consider. To get consistency in a touchless tunnel the length you are talking about will required slowing down the chain speed and it will reduce the capacity that you will be able to handle at peak times. It will also cost you more in chemical and water expense. Unless you really want to go touchfree I agree that you might want to look at a hybrid system with limited friction utilizing touchfree technology.

 

[iwashcars]

Thank you all for the comments very helpful. I am currently a full service hand wash. So I am used to running a slow chain. I think the most I have ever put through in an hour was about 61 cars and that is very rare. Average chain speed would be more like 40 CPH. We do a lot of finishing work now so I'm not too worried about that. I would not be 100% Touchless as it would be accompanied with a side to size Mitter and a 18" rocker panel brush and also a poodle or wheel brush. So knowing this do you think I can get clean cars at 50-maybe 60 cars per hour?
Thanks Paul

 

[rph9168]

What you describe is a hybrid. Sounds like upi should be fine in the set up you are thinking of. Pick your chemicals carefully. Drying could become an issue without the right balance in a short tunnel.

 

[briteauto]

Ditto on the "how clean is clean" comment.

My measure would be a white cloth test on the side or hood of a vehicle - basically any area that should be easily reached by your equipment, be it touch or touchless.

If you wipe one of those areas, are you getting film on the cloth?

Some will say that black cars can have a film left on them in a touchless wash, but the color of paint has nothing to do with being able to clean it. A black car may show the film better, but you can bet it is on every car (with that type of soil), regardless of the color. Chemicals and high pressure do not work differently on different color paints.

That is why a visual test does not really give an accurate portrayal of how clean your car is. Give one of the body panels a quick swipe with a soft white cloth, and you will know if you are getting a car clean or not.

Mitters, rockers and wheel brushes will go a long way in a hybrid set up to helping you remove the film. You'll have the best of both worlds, as friction plus touchless technologies combined will yield a very clean car by most standards. Plus, if you continue to do the finishing work, you will have all your bases covered.


Mike

 

[Earl Weiss]

. So I am used to running a slow chain. I think the most I have ever put through in an hour was about 61 cars and that is very rare. Average chain speed would be more like 40 CPH. We do a lot of finishing work now so I'm not too worried about that. I would not be 100% Touchless as it would be accompanied with a side to size Mitter and a 18" rocker panel brush and also a poodle or wheel brush. So knowing this do you think I can get clean cars at 50-maybe 60 cars per hour?
Thanks Paul

Well with the amount of equipment you are considering I would suggest either "more", or if your finances don't allow for more at least lay it out so you can easily ad more. You can put a lot of stuff in 70 feet.
Some factors like climate apply. In a warm climate, if the site permits you can have equipment right at the doors. In colder climates you'll need to keep the heat in and be 10 feet inside the doors or more. Can you run the conveyor out the front door so the cars get the full tunnel for cleaning?

One mfgr has a mitter spider wrap setup where you can put a wheel brush underneath with a lower detail mounted on the wheel brush and it takes up 30feet.

With slow speed you could use 10 feet for drip space and 10 feet for Drying.

Leaves you 20 feet to play with or whats needed for climate and dwell issues or even rom for a second mitter and more lower details if other concerns don't dictate room needed for other stuff.

 

[buda]

I have been around long enough to remember when touchless conveyorized washing was introduced to the car wash industry by Dr Josef Enning from Mr Wash in Germany.

It was quickly accepted by many existing carwash operators and was a hot concept for a number of years.

Then, it more or less died out. The professional full service car wash operators found that they could not get cars clean enough for their higher volume locations and it did not meet the expectations of their customers without a lot of hand labor at the end.

And, interestingly enough, Dr Enning has not used the touchless concept in his chain of high volume washes throughout Germany in years, using American style friction equipment. For over 15+ years.

The oil companies and the self service operator with an inbay automatic love the touchless machines because their is very little if any customer claims because nothing touches the car and there is less maintenance sense the machines are relatively simple, but expensive.

In some climatic areas the machines will clean a car that is not particularly dirty.

In areas where soil can be difficult to clean an operator has to be "on-top" of the chemical formulation,etc. You need to constantly monitor and adjust the chemical to make sure it is working.

Another thing to look at are the most succcessful car wash chains in the country. Ask yourself are they using touchless? Auto Bell; Mike's Car Washes; Kaady Car Washes to name a few they are all using friction wash materials.

Just some well intentioned thoughts on the subject.

Remember opinions are like "belly-buttons" everybody has one.

Bud Abraham