As an old timer in the car wash industry I was talking to a fellow old timer and the topic of brushes (bristles) came up. Since it seems like our industry is good at recycling methods - top brushes, flowing wax arches, high foaming prep arches, etc - we posed the idea that maybe it is time to bring back the old bristle type brushes. We all know that almost all claims of damage by bristles were bogus. Problems with cleaning or damage was more related to the lack of proper maintenance and use of the wrong soaps or lack of using any soaps to lubricate at all. Anyone that has seen a properly maintained and operated friction equipment with bristles knows that this type of media does an exceptional job of cleaning and getting into nooks and crannies that today's cloth or foam cannot. They are also much quieter than cloth or foam slapping on the vehicle which has become more of a concern with the vast majority of customers now riding inside the vehicle during the wash process. In addition advancements in the bristle material would enhance their performance. While it was just a thought I am relatively sure no manufacturer would seriously consider this but it was something that was interesting to ponder.
Bring Back Bristle Brushes - Just a Thought
- Thread starter rph9168
- Start date
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 6,369
- Reaction score
- 941
- Points
- 113
I am a believer.
If I am not mistaken, Sonny's still specs this for the lower detail mounted on the wheel brush option. Only recently did I remove all bristles at one place (busiest of the 4 locations) but this was more a function of needing to get rid of the top brushes. Flushing this material with soapy water just like you do on the cloth prevents any issues just like on the cloth. Wraps were gentler on front license plates. FWIW I replaced lower detail hubs with bristle at one place as well as the lower section of High Side wheels with bristle to enhance wheel cleaning. Also, I think "Filament" is a better word. But even aa better word could be found.
Been trying to get Dan at Erie to come up with a C Channel mount for Bristle so I can play with it more by getting sections in 12" heights without messing with seperate cores. So far no luck.
If I am not mistaken, Sonny's still specs this for the lower detail mounted on the wheel brush option. Only recently did I remove all bristles at one place (busiest of the 4 locations) but this was more a function of needing to get rid of the top brushes. Flushing this material with soapy water just like you do on the cloth prevents any issues just like on the cloth. Wraps were gentler on front license plates. FWIW I replaced lower detail hubs with bristle at one place as well as the lower section of High Side wheels with bristle to enhance wheel cleaning. Also, I think "Filament" is a better word. But even aa better word could be found.
Been trying to get Dan at Erie to come up with a C Channel mount for Bristle so I can play with it more by getting sections in 12" heights without messing with seperate cores. So far no luck.
Earl, I agree that filament is a much better choice of words. Bristles sounds harsh. I hope you keep us up to date on your progress. I think Dan would be an idea guy to work on this. I know him fairly well and may contact him as well.
smokun
Consultant - Rainmaker
Great idea, Ron. I too am a believer. Truth be known, "organic polymer filament" much more easily conforms to the various contours of vehicle surfaces, and due to its inherently slippery property actually requires less chemical while posing an even smaller risk to trim than fabric.
I remember when the Belanger family invited me to try the original "wheels", which we did. Much greater use of a high lubricity shampoo was the only way to avoid trim removal. We had barrels full of trim until we reverted back to pex. But with the trend moving towards fabric, we found a way to effectively merchandise the new technology: "Diaper-Soft Fabric That Pampers Your Car's Finish" while less enlightened operators felt fine with the oxymoron "brushless" as their newest claim to fame.
I miss the vibrant colors that were available to dress up your tunnel. And once the pex flagged, there wasn't a more effective cleaning action if you used a high-lubricity detergent and the appropriate application of wash-water. Plastic was easier to clean and maintain, too.
I recall the obnoxious clowns in the business that based their promotions on "avoiding the scratches left by harsh plastic bristles". Some opportunists did it out of self-interest to bolstering their new product sales while others were simply mindless and followed the crowd. Nevertheless, the industry found a way to correct itself... as business always does.
I remember when the Belanger family invited me to try the original "wheels", which we did. Much greater use of a high lubricity shampoo was the only way to avoid trim removal. We had barrels full of trim until we reverted back to pex. But with the trend moving towards fabric, we found a way to effectively merchandise the new technology: "Diaper-Soft Fabric That Pampers Your Car's Finish" while less enlightened operators felt fine with the oxymoron "brushless" as their newest claim to fame.
I miss the vibrant colors that were available to dress up your tunnel. And once the pex flagged, there wasn't a more effective cleaning action if you used a high-lubricity detergent and the appropriate application of wash-water. Plastic was easier to clean and maintain, too.
I recall the obnoxious clowns
in the business that based their promotions on "avoiding the scratches left by harsh plastic bristles". Some opportunists did it out of self-interest to bolstering their new product sales while others were simply mindless and followed the crowd. Nevertheless, the industry found a way to correct itself... as business always does.
Last edited:
Put me down as another operator that wouldn't mind bringing back the "filament" A C-channel option would make it easy to experiment with in many washes. I am finding that more and more people don't care very much about what happens during the wash, as long as their car looks great when they drive away.
David
David
soapy
Senior Member
I had a bristle brush ryko back in the 90s. It did a great job of cleaning. Problem was that too many people had been told over time that they scratched even though they did not. I think Mercedes and BMW still use it at their factories and it is still popular in European countries.
I think enough time has passed for the old stigma about brushes scratching to have at least faded. I agree that most people just want a clean dry car and aren't as interested in the process. I think operators today are much more knowledgeable about detergency and lubrication than those in the past, especially with the new foam media that requires more lubricity. I have seen some of those old Rykos recently putting out some very good vehicles. That is what got me start to thinking more about this. I hope some manufacturer at least looks into this as an option.
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
When I first got into the conveyor business in 1978 all we had was bristle. Sohio had over 100 conveyor washes that got pretty clean cars with no prepping. We had really nice Sherman wraps that followed the best of any wrap I have ever seen. The plastic really did a good job of cleaning, but is not as durable as the cloth or foam we use today in my opinion. I'm also not sure how it would affect todays base coat/ clear coat paint jobs. The only place I would consider using filiment would be on my Wrap arounds.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 6,369
- Reaction score
- 941
- Points
- 113
Same experience taking out wheel barrows full of chrome trim. Big difference today is litttle chrome moulding and the stuff is also glued on.>>>" while less enlightened operators felt fine with the oxymoron "brushless" as their newest claim to fame.
>>I recall the obnoxious clowns
I'm sure you can also recall the walkway displays with some petrified bristlke next to the cloth and I've seen a later one touting another material next to petrified filament and petrified cloth.
One thing cloth taught me was that whereas the filament only had water applied to the material cloth had a soap injection for cleaning and lubrication. I then incorporated that into my filament units.
robert roman
Bob Roman
A good decision would increase rate at which carwash generates money through sales, decrease operating expense or lower overall capital investment.
Hot wax was reinvented because it meets first criteria. Selling price ($4.00) minus cost of raw materials ($1.50) equals throughput or contribution margin ($2.50).
Top brush was reinvented because foam reduces damage, proven to “shine” paint (value added), less noise than cloth and spins fast (more HP equals more work), especially important for mini-tunnel.
Touch-less is poised for comeback because of robotics. Typical in-bay moves 5 meters per minute or about 12 cars an hour. Industry’s first robotic wash does 30 cars an hour. Robotic arm moves even faster, 90 to 120 meters per minute.
For OEM to show interest filament would need to represent a good market opportunity - wide spread sales and growth potential (not), few competitors (not) and product characteristics should eclipse current technology (not).
For example, automated tire shine applicator in conveyor tunnels is ubiquitous, pit and pendulum device not so much.
Hot wax was reinvented because it meets first criteria. Selling price ($4.00) minus cost of raw materials ($1.50) equals throughput or contribution margin ($2.50).
Top brush was reinvented because foam reduces damage, proven to “shine” paint (value added), less noise than cloth and spins fast (more HP equals more work), especially important for mini-tunnel.
Touch-less is poised for comeback because of robotics. Typical in-bay moves 5 meters per minute or about 12 cars an hour. Industry’s first robotic wash does 30 cars an hour. Robotic arm moves even faster, 90 to 120 meters per minute.
For OEM to show interest filament would need to represent a good market opportunity - wide spread sales and growth potential (not), few competitors (not) and product characteristics should eclipse current technology (not).
For example, automated tire shine applicator in conveyor tunnels is ubiquitous, pit and pendulum device not so much.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 6,369
- Reaction score
- 941
- Points
- 113
The market is their if it proves effective since most side wheels / waps seem to use "C" Channel hubs. Their is still filament out there. I get mine from Erie. The only ting lacking is the fastening system for C Channel. I have to look at the c Channel system for the foam on my raps and see how they did that. Perhaps that or something similar would work for filament.
One thing mssing from your intro "Good Decision" paragraph is cleaning effectiveness.
Robotics may aid in speed and efficiency of touchless, but typicaly the water cost for touchless is much higher, so this would really have to be a value customers were willing to pay for.
Question for Robert, Which manufacture is making this new, high throughput robotic touch-less wash?
Cheers
robert roman
Bob Roman
“….mssing from your intro "Good Decision" paragraph is cleaning effectiveness.”
Not really. For example, cleaning effectiveness is subjective whereas throughput is objective.
Throughout is measured in dollars (price less COG). Since dollars is car count multiplied by average price, we would expect ineffective cleaning to impact throughput – car isn’t clean, customer doesn’t come back.
“Robotics may aid in speed and efficiency of touchless, but….water cost for touchless is much higher…..”
The robotic wash mentioned claims to use about 25 percent less electricity and water than typical touch-less.
Robotic wash system mentioned is 360-I made by Petit Auto Wash, Norton, Ohio.
Not really. For example, cleaning effectiveness is subjective whereas throughput is objective.
Throughout is measured in dollars (price less COG). Since dollars is car count multiplied by average price, we would expect ineffective cleaning to impact throughput – car isn’t clean, customer doesn’t come back.
“Robotics may aid in speed and efficiency of touchless, but….water cost for touchless is much higher…..”
The robotic wash mentioned claims to use about 25 percent less electricity and water than typical touch-less.
Robotic wash system mentioned is 360-I made by Petit Auto Wash, Norton, Ohio.
cantbreak80
Maybe I need new clubs
How about that...
A 21st century version of Dr. Innis' and Ron Bell's International Touchless "Robbie7"...from the 1970's
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2007
- Messages
- 6,369
- Reaction score
- 941
- Points
- 113
I reject your reality and substitute my own vis a vis cleaning effectiveness of filament vs. cloth. Either the bird poop is there or it's gone. Either more nooks and crannies are cleaned or the'yre not.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“How about that...A 21st century version of Dr. Innis' and Ron Bell's International Touchless "Robbie7"...from the 1970's”
I owned a Robbie arch so I can say this isn’t so.
The Robbie was simply a high-pressure following arch with photocells to control position in relation to vehicle surface. Robbie had no logic controls for articulation of nozzles or safety features like danger monitoring and obstacle avoidance.
I found the Robbie photocells and circuitry a nightmare and constantly failing. So bad, I fixed mine in top position and left it there.
In short, the Robbie was not a true robot – a device that operates on six and seven degrees of freedom.
Petit Accutrac arch (shown on website) is similar to Robbie but different (and patented) in that it articulates – the arch follows and nozzles change position.
This device was sold to MacNeil which is now part of Ryko.
The 360-i is not shown on website. Why not? I don’t know call and ask.
My guess, like the Accutrac, he is going to find a buyer and cash in on his patents.
I owned a Robbie arch so I can say this isn’t so.
The Robbie was simply a high-pressure following arch with photocells to control position in relation to vehicle surface. Robbie had no logic controls for articulation of nozzles or safety features like danger monitoring and obstacle avoidance.
I found the Robbie photocells and circuitry a nightmare and constantly failing. So bad, I fixed mine in top position and left it there.
In short, the Robbie was not a true robot – a device that operates on six and seven degrees of freedom.
Petit Accutrac arch (shown on website) is similar to Robbie but different (and patented) in that it articulates – the arch follows and nozzles change position.
This device was sold to MacNeil which is now part of Ryko.
The 360-i is not shown on website. Why not? I don’t know call and ask.
My guess, like the Accutrac, he is going to find a buyer and cash in on his patents.
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
I know several operators who use Petit's conveyor wash system. One of them has the follower top bar in a fixed position at the top and doesn't have it follow the horizontal surfaces. Another one put back in friction equipment because he was tired of having days where he couldn't get clean cars. Now it's just an expensive prep arch. These are both experienced operators with over 60 years combined in the wash business.
Well might as well throw my .02 in. There does seem to be a market for both filament, closed cell foam and touchless. Is that three? The filaments have left a very bad impression on a lot of people, including me. I used to service a lot of Ryko filament (a.k.a weed wacker) washes, and EVERY time I went into a wash bay it was littered with pieces of cars _ antennae, trim, you name it. If it was loose the filaments could pull it off fairly easily. If the operator was lucky the brush just pulled it off. Sometimes the piece got entangled in the brush, with the resulting damage claims. It's my understanding that the reason that touchless machines came about was the oil companies kept complaining to the wash manufacturers about damage claims, and how to find a solution for it. Thus touchless came into vogue.
robert roman
Bob Roman
“....One of them....doesn't have it follow the horizontal surfaces. Another one put back in friction....couldn't get clean cars. .....experienced operators with over 60 years.....wash business.”
Since I do not know these folks, I can’t judge this as evidence or hearsay.
What I do know is I have a client that served as beta site and produced 100,000’s of clean cars using the following arch and the 360-i (tunnel version).
I also know some carwash operators are their own worst enemy.
When hot wax was reintroduced, a friend of mine told me the first thing a fellow operator asked him was how much do you think I can cut back on the amount of product recommended before the wax won’t work?
Almost a decade ago, I advised an investor to run don’t walk on a NNN in upstate N.Y. He didn’t listen and then lost $400,000 cash to an unscrupulous property owner and partner, some basketball smuck.
Friction wash process allows for a learning curve. Touch-less doesn’t and neither does bathtub blending.
For example, if you take a motorcycle with stock rims and tires and mount an over-sized rim with a very narrow tire on the front and fat tire on rear, the bike may look cooler but the handling characteristics will suffer greatly.
Likewise, it doesn’t pay to tinker with touch-less process unless you understand the chemistry and technology involved.
Since I do not know these folks, I can’t judge this as evidence or hearsay.
What I do know is I have a client that served as beta site and produced 100,000’s of clean cars using the following arch and the 360-i (tunnel version).
I also know some carwash operators are their own worst enemy.
When hot wax was reintroduced, a friend of mine told me the first thing a fellow operator asked him was how much do you think I can cut back on the amount of product recommended before the wax won’t work?
Almost a decade ago, I advised an investor to run don’t walk on a NNN in upstate N.Y. He didn’t listen and then lost $400,000 cash to an unscrupulous property owner and partner, some basketball smuck.
Friction wash process allows for a learning curve. Touch-less doesn’t and neither does bathtub blending.
For example, if you take a motorcycle with stock rims and tires and mount an over-sized rim with a very narrow tire on the front and fat tire on rear, the bike may look cooler but the handling characteristics will suffer greatly.
Likewise, it doesn’t pay to tinker with touch-less process unless you understand the chemistry and technology involved.
The main cause of damage by the old Rykos was neglect due to lousy maintenance and lack of chemicals. If you saw a lot of pieces of vehicles the machine was probably neglected. If you looked in most friction tunnels at that time you would have seen much the same results. I remember seeing barrels full of vehicle parts in back rooms of tunnels, especially license plates, antennas and molding strips. Today very few states require license plates on the front of vehicles, not many have antennas and there is not much that is affixed to the sides any more.
Oil companies used to consider these units as disposable and rather than paying to keep them properly maintained they simply replaced them. While it is true that oil companies were the main driver for touch free equipment, touch free tunnels had been around long before they were introduced to the automatic market. I called on many oil companies for a major chemical supplier. I always found it revealing that they were only concerned about the cost and seldom if ever asked if we could get a clean car.
Oil companies used to consider these units as disposable and rather than paying to keep them properly maintained they simply replaced them. While it is true that oil companies were the main driver for touch free equipment, touch free tunnels had been around long before they were introduced to the automatic market. I called on many oil companies for a major chemical supplier. I always found it revealing that they were only concerned about the cost and seldom if ever asked if we could get a clean car.