Catastrophic Power Surge

[washme1]

What a nightmare. An apparent power surge fried just about everything in my D & S Quicksilver. When I received a call from my security service that the automatic had shut down, I went to my remote surveillance. All lights were out. Assuming it was a power outage, I called the utility company. Two hours later, bay lights still out but vac island lights and meter box lights back on. I go to car wash and find the pump on the automatic had been running with no water for over two hours. Contactor for bay lights had fried, breaker on air compressor popped, fuse for overhead doors blown. It appears all the boards, the display, the pump, motor and who knows what else are ruined. Machine is basically salvage. Just installed a new $600 encoder last week. Apparently, the system went to single phase and ran that way for over two hours while I was waiting for a call from the utility company or indication from surveillance that power was restored. Never heard back from utility company. My fight with the utility company will begin shortly. I will have a lot of spare Quicksilver parts and hoses for sale if anyone is interested.

 

[robert roman]

“Apparently, the system went to single phase….waiting for a call from the utility company….Never heard back from utility company. My fight with the utility company will begin shortly.”

Unless the utility provider is an especially “kind” organization, it may never call back.

Depending on how old or overloaded an electrical service is, damage to 3-phase motors from single phase can occur in seconds.

However, even if the provider is responsible for phasing, property owner is responsible for mitigating this risk just as an operator is responsible for protecting machines from surges (i.e. lightning protector for PC, TV, lamps, etc.).

Unfortunately, I’ve lost such a fight twice before.

 

[Greg Pack]

Ouch-Does your insurance policy cover damage from bad electrical?

 

[JGinther]

I have had exactly the same types of damage as you suffered from exactly the same problem in two different instances. The utility company (in our case the city) filed it with their insurance company. Their insurance company contacted us and wrote us a letter saying that since the problem was not caused willfully by an employee, and was a problem that happened by a natural occurance (break in underground wire), the city has 'sovereign immunity'. It is the owners responsibility to protect equipment form phase loss. When I showed that it wasn't the phase loss per say that did most of the damage, it was the surge from the 3rd line going back online that created a surge that wiped out most of the electronics in our location; they said 'sorry about that', but it still didn't matter because they are the government and they are impossible to sue. The letter showed that the only way the city could be liable is if the problem happened by an "employee driving a vehicle", or if the city 'consented' to us suing.

 

[JGinther]

Ouch-Does your insurance policy cover damage from bad electrical?

All insurance policies I have ever seen do not cover damage from utilities. It is a listed exception.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

Business Interruption Insurance

 

[JGinther]

Would Business Interruption Insurance cover the damage? or just the loss of business?

 

[JMMUSTANG]

I believe both.
But your lost of business in one bay might not be much.

 

[JGinther]

I thought that supplimental policies like the one listed only come into play in the event of a "covered cause of loss", in which case this would would not be...?

 

[mac]

Just replaced an automatic and other items caused by a lightning strike. His insurance covered everything. Aparantly there is a web site that records strikes, as his agent went online and said, yup, you got hit allright.

 

[MEP001]

Just replaced an automatic and other items caused by a lightning strike. His insurance covered everything. Aparantly there is a web site that records strikes, as his agent went online and said, yup, you got hit allright.

Doesn't apply here...

 

[2Biz]

So given all this and maybe insurance will pay or maybe not, does anybody protect their equipment with surge protectors? Although, I don't know if surge suppressors would help if a leg drops out on 3 phase? This has happened to me several times. The last time it took out 2 CFL's and an Led 7 timer in one bay only...Which I thought was strange? I knew I had a voltage issue when my pop machines both displayed low voltage....I've been at the wash when a leg drops out, the equipment makes all kinds of weird noises. Can't be good on it.
I have suppressors on my changer, Programmable relays, and my floor heat demand heater. It has a control board as big as a PC....So far I've never had any problems with anything that I have protected. Just the stuff that's not....

 

[washme1]

Ouch-Does your insurance policy cover damage from bad electrical?

Didn't request equipment breakdown coverage because I couldn't imagine a situation of equipment breakdown exceeding $1000 deductible that I would file a claim on.

 

[washme1]

Would Business Interruption Insurance cover the damage? or just the loss of business?

I am checking later today but my background as an insurance agent tells me there most likely would be no coverage if the underlying occurrence itself is not covered.

 

[washme1]

Just replaced an automatic and other items caused by a lightning strike. His insurance covered everything. Aparantly there is a web site that records strikes, as his agent went online and said, yup, you got hit allright.

Lightning would be a covered loss but was not the cause of my occurence

 

[Rudy]

To answer you question....Yes, I have an industrial grade 3 phase surge protector at my car wash. If memory serves me correctly...it was a $1000 unit I picked up as new surplus on eBay for $200.

FWIW, I used to go through Hamilton controllers (ACW and Changers) every year or so due to lightning. I haven't replace a single unit since I hard wired UPS (Uninteruptable power supplies) into the units.

 

[Stuart]

I have had a leg drop on my 3 phase so many times.... My motor contactors have a motor overload protection unit which drops the load and has to be manual reset incase of phasing issues.
The only pieces of equipment we had problems with a lightning strike was or pos4000 to our ACW cashier and a couple times the cashier controller.
I will need to check out the surge protectors for that astronomical chance I get hit real hard with some occurrence.

 

[Randy]

We had a similar incident happen last summer. A cab ambulance hit the guy wire for a power pole across the street trying to cut thought a used car lot to take a short cut to the medical marihuana clinic. When he hit the guy wire the resulting whiplash of the power poles caused the wires to short out and blow 2 of the phases. This caused almost $10,000 in damages to the car wash equipment and at the used car lot sign and computers. The cab ambulance company is owned by a family of “new Americans”, we played hell getting them to make it right but when they realized that they could lose their VA transportation contact they paid. Has anyone determined what caused you to lose one of your phases?

 

[bigleo48]

Washme,

This happened to my competitor and caused a fire and he was out of business for 3 months. Had to basically rebuild his whole wash. The power company paid for it all including loss of revenue.

So was it a power surge or a loss of two phases? BTW, why didn't your motor starter not trip on your HP pump when down to one phase...The current draw on that phase should have easily tripped it and save the lot.

I am paranoid whenever a power disruption occurs. I have a power monitoring device that tells me when there is a power loss, phase reversal, loss of phase and substantial difference in phase voltage levels. I always go to the wash when it alerts me. I was considering having this device open the main disconnect when a problem is detected.

You may also want to consider install a 'whole service' surge protector. They have come down in price substantially in the last few years. I would also have an electrician look at your service, audit the main disconnect fuses, test the grounding and use an infrared camera to detect hot spots. As you may know, when you have this type of problems, much of the equipment that hasn't failed, may fail over the next few months.

Good luck to you and try not to get too stressed out!

 

[wash4me]

Yes your motor overloads should have kicked out in this situation if they were properly set. Phase loss protection is not going to protect against spikes, transients etc that hit the electronics. So, one way is you have 208 volt coils on motor starters and then if you lose a phase there's a 2/3 chance it turns off. Another way is a phase monitoring relay connected to the main incoming service...Like bigleo said the large contactor would simply open for phase reversal, phase loss, brownout etc. This same phase loss relay could also be wired to all motor starters and simply open them. This would be an expensive set up for the main service and still would not protect against a near direct or direct lightning hit.