PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Yes, I think I agree. Just trying to understand more before I do to much, I dont want to make things worse!
24V issues in coin box?? Need help.
- Thread starter PaulLovesJamie
- Start date
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Ghosts! Learning all kinds of stuff this week.
I was unable to get into the forum this morning so I hadnt seen the last couple of replies, but I did do a couple more measurements this morning.
First I shut off the circuit breaker and disconnected one of the 121V wires coming from the circuit breaker to the motor contactor. Voltage from this bare wire (not connected to anything except the breaker) was 24V.
Yes it runs thru a conduit with the supply wires for the other bays, and yes those breakers were still on.
I was thinking "bad breakers??" but now that I've read this I'm concluding that JGinther is probably correct, its ghost voltage. I believe I can safely ignore it.
I replaced my dead Fluke multimeter with an inexpensive Cen-Tech clamp multimeter a few years ago, havent needed to get a good one again... yet. Perhaps it's time.
By "short it out" I think you mean I should take the wire that comes from the breaker and touch it to the grounding lug while the breaker is shut off. Will do tomorrow, hopefully it wont let any smoke out.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
I've made a few more measurements and a few more changes.
1) All transformers wired at 220, confirmed in phase, no wild leg.
2) I removed the green ground wire on my transformers, as suggested by MEP001. Confirmed that there is so difference in any volt/amp readings anywhere, as expected.
3) I had a couple 5A MDL fuses, installed them on 2 transformers. Hardware store didnt have 4A, I have some on order. Life in the country
4) I confirmed the amp readings on the hot wire coming into the timer on all functions, all bays except Bay5 which is where I've had most of the problems - I've been nervous about opening that bay back up until I get this issue sorted out. I think I'm getting it sorted out so I will be reopening & running tests on that bay shortly.
(Note: Construction on the road in front of my wash for the past 3-4 weeks, business is way down so this is actually not a bad time for me to have a bay closed and be doing all this "experimenting.")
All amp readings are within a few hundredths of being the same, and dont vary. So I'm tentatively concluding that I dont have solenoid issues.
5) Incidentally, I observe that the EV timers and the dixmor timers pull about the same amperage when in use (within a couple hundredths). When rotary switch is on stop, the dixmor varies between .2 and .15, whereas the EV varies between .22 and .32. I speculate that the variation is due to the scrolling led message differences.
6) I measured resistance from the mounting plate to the grounding lug, 55 ohms. A 12ga grounding wire that goes directly to the grounding lug measured 22 ohms. I'm not certain how material that difference is, but at least it tells me the mounting plate is not as good a ground as a wire going directly to the grounding lug.
1) All transformers wired at 220, confirmed in phase, no wild leg.
2) I removed the green ground wire on my transformers, as suggested by MEP001. Confirmed that there is so difference in any volt/amp readings anywhere, as expected.
3) I had a couple 5A MDL fuses, installed them on 2 transformers. Hardware store didnt have 4A, I have some on order. Life in the country
4) I confirmed the amp readings on the hot wire coming into the timer on all functions, all bays except Bay5 which is where I've had most of the problems - I've been nervous about opening that bay back up until I get this issue sorted out. I think I'm getting it sorted out so I will be reopening & running tests on that bay shortly.
(Note: Construction on the road in front of my wash for the past 3-4 weeks, business is way down so this is actually not a bad time for me to have a bay closed and be doing all this "experimenting.")
All amp readings are within a few hundredths of being the same, and dont vary. So I'm tentatively concluding that I dont have solenoid issues.
5) Incidentally, I observe that the EV timers and the dixmor timers pull about the same amperage when in use (within a couple hundredths). When rotary switch is on stop, the dixmor varies between .2 and .15, whereas the EV varies between .22 and .32. I speculate that the variation is due to the scrolling led message differences.
6) I measured resistance from the mounting plate to the grounding lug, 55 ohms. A 12ga grounding wire that goes directly to the grounding lug measured 22 ohms. I'm not certain how material that difference is, but at least it tells me the mounting plate is not as good a ground as a wire going directly to the grounding lug.
7) Hmmm. With my transformer wired at 220, I disconnected ALL wires & the fuse from the 24V side. One terminal measured 27V, the other three measured 0V. That leaves me wondering why 2 of the terminals are wired together, but at this point I'm getting a bit saturated so I'm going to chalk this up to "different transformers behave differently" or something.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Headache is diminishing, but not gone yet primarily because I dont know for sure what caused my electronics failures, or if I've corrected it yet.
I'm still concerned about the rotary switch, mainly because this is the only explanation I've heard for the cycling validator that makes any sense whatsoever. On that note, I must admit I'm a bit annoyed that coinco couldnt tell me why the validator would cycle. The only info I got from them was "water damage" (BS) or "you have an electrical problem."
My rudimentary tests indicate that it is OK, these switches are only 2 years old, and since 2 bays began acting up within a couple weeks of each other I'm inclined to suspect that they are OK. But I know better than to conclude, I'm suspicious of this. I just hate to replace a $100 part in 2 bays without knowing. Maybe short sighted and/or stubborn.
Last edited:
Eric H
Well-known member
I think it is time to move the 2 suspect faceplates to other bays and wait and see.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
PaulLovesJamie,
I hope you don't mind this country bumpkin bumping this thread up. I realize you may need more time to be more conclusive ... but I am thinking a bunch of us are at the edge of our seat wondering if the problem just cleared up mysteriously or if one or more of your specific interventions actually solved the problem.
mike walsh www.kingkoin.com
I hope you don't mind this country bumpkin
bumping this thread up. I realize you may need more time to be more conclusive ... but I am thinking a bunch of us are at the edge of our seat wondering if the problem just cleared up mysteriously or if one or more of your specific interventions actually solved the problem.mike walsh www.kingkoin.com
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Thanks for asking Mike - unfortunately I dont know if my problem(s) are fixed or not.
I do know that I've made improvements, and I also have more knowledge than I did a month ago. I've implemented almost all the suggestions from this thread, and everything is working OK right now. But this problem has been intermittent over the past year or so, and only came to a head this past month. So I dont know if I'll have failures tonight, or next week, or next month... or if its "fixed." I hate that.
The 2 main things I have NOT done yet are
1) whole-service TVSS
2) replaced the rotary switches (and maybe the control wiring).
#2, the rotary switch is nagging me, part of me wants to replace them. If these problems manifest themselves again I'm just going to throw money at it and replace the switches. (I use the XL electroswitches at about $125 each). JGinther's post about the voltage being pulled down is the only sensible explanation I've heard so far for the validator cycling, and I'm thinking maybe its only effecting the validator because its only coming down a little bit and the validator is more sensitive than the other componenets? Wish I'd known enough to measure the voltage while the validator was cycling.
Will definitely let you know if the problems reoccur, I guess for now I'm watching closely & keeping my fingers crossed.
I do know that I've made improvements, and I also have more knowledge than I did a month ago. I've implemented almost all the suggestions from this thread, and everything is working OK right now. But this problem has been intermittent over the past year or so, and only came to a head this past month. So I dont know if I'll have failures tonight, or next week, or next month... or if its "fixed." I hate that.
The 2 main things I have NOT done yet are
1) whole-service TVSS
2) replaced the rotary switches (and maybe the control wiring).
#2, the rotary switch is nagging me, part of me wants to replace them. If these problems manifest themselves again I'm just going to throw money at it and replace the switches. (I use the XL electroswitches at about $125 each). JGinther's post about the voltage being pulled down is the only sensible explanation I've heard so far for the validator cycling, and I'm thinking maybe its only effecting the validator because its only coming down a little bit and the validator is more sensitive than the other componenets? Wish I'd known enough to measure the voltage while the validator was cycling.
Will definitely let you know if the problems reoccur, I guess for now I'm watching closely & keeping my fingers crossed.
cmawash
Member
220 or 120 makes no difference, what is needed is that all grounds be it metal case tied to system electrical ground, it appears that there are separate returns which indicated by voltage differences. electrical system if its 220 or 120 all 24 voltage's
must be the same, if there are voltage different in the each bay when referenced to ground you have a problem. some where in the system for each bay a return got mixed up. trouble shooting starts with 24v in each bay. look and find which bay is causing trouble and find out which wire when disconnected corrects problem, try to get back to 24 volts, problem occurs when systems are added to original design. Etowah wants all cases tied to a common ground point. electrical signals can be separate but systems need to talk to each other that were your problem is. current is returning thru an other device. problem happens when there plc or other electrical ( solid state) devices in the system. electrical neutral and system ground are 2 different animals. believe that where your getting bit.
must be the same, if there are voltage different in the each bay when referenced to ground you have a problem. some where in the system for each bay a return got mixed up. trouble shooting starts with 24v in each bay. look and find which bay is causing trouble and find out which wire when disconnected corrects problem, try to get back to 24 volts, problem occurs when systems are added to original design. Etowah wants all cases tied to a common ground point. electrical signals can be separate but systems need to talk to each other that were your problem is. current is returning thru an other device. problem happens when there plc or other electrical ( solid state) devices in the system. electrical neutral and system ground are 2 different animals. believe that where your getting bit.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
somehow I missed this response, I need to read it more closely & understand it.
PaulLovesJamie
rural 5 bay SS
Two months, I was starting to think I had it solved.
Until last week - validator is cycling in one of the bays again.
No other equipment running anywhere at the wash.
I did a few measurements - 24 vac steady going into the timer. Nothing showing on the ground wire.
Next step: Dynamite.
Well, not really. OK, maybe.
For now I disconnected the validators & bought an analog multimeter on ebay, maybe my cheapo digital just isnt showing the voltage fluctuations. Waiting for it to arrive, then will open this blasted thing back up again.
Until last week - validator is cycling in one of the bays again.
No other equipment running anywhere at the wash.
I did a few measurements - 24 vac steady going into the timer. Nothing showing on the ground wire.
Next step: Dynamite.
Well, not really. OK, maybe.
For now I disconnected the validators & bought an analog multimeter on ebay, maybe my cheapo digital just isnt showing the voltage fluctuations. Waiting for it to arrive, then will open this blasted thing back up again.
