is this a bad set up for a floor heat or am I missing something. It doesn't have a holding tank, it keeps running on and off and ice builds up on floor bays. I was thinking of pulling it out and installing a household water heater. It's got antifreeze now and I was wondering that if I switch to a water heater and keep it running on cold days if I can get by with water only?
Floor heat
- Thread starter HCW
- Start date
Jeff_L
Well-known member
I think that would be a mistake to use a house water heater and water for your floor heat. Stick with a boiler and glycol so your lines don't clog from water deposits and the boiler can heat transfer much, much quicker than a standard water heater.
As for ice on your bay floors, check the temp setting on your boiler, amount of glycol in your lines, are they pressurized, etc.
As for ice on your bay floors, check the temp setting on your boiler, amount of glycol in your lines, are they pressurized, etc.
Do you know what fires your boiler? A slabstat or an aquastat on the return line to the boiler?
I control mine with an aquastat on the return line set with a 15° differential. I keep glycol temperature between 55° and 70° and that keeps my bays ice free. +1 on what Jeff_L said....Running your floor heat off a std. water heater would be a mistake. You also don't want to run plain water for a number of reasons. A power outage that causes frozen/busted floor loops is a good reason for starters!
I redesigned my floor heat a few years back and pretty much documented the entire install. Lots of reading, but you may find some of the answers your looking for.
http://www.autocareforum.com/showth...-Water-Heater-For-Floor-Heat&highlight=heater
I control mine with an aquastat on the return line set with a 15° differential. I keep glycol temperature between 55° and 70° and that keeps my bays ice free. +1 on what Jeff_L said....Running your floor heat off a std. water heater would be a mistake. You also don't want to run plain water for a number of reasons. A power outage that causes frozen/busted floor loops is a good reason for starters!
I redesigned my floor heat a few years back and pretty much documented the entire install. Lots of reading, but you may find some of the answers your looking for.
http://www.autocareforum.com/showth...-Water-Heater-For-Floor-Heat&highlight=heater
cantbreak80
Maybe I need new clubs
Your system can work, but you’ll have to overcome the poorly executed installation. To function effectively, every heating loop should be no longer than 200’ with 10% maximum differential. Running equal length loops from the equipment room is virtually impossible, therefore the shorter loops starve the longer loops for flow. The ball valves on the return manifold can serve as “flow controls” to balance the system… but ball valves are very, very (yes, that’s two verys) difficult to adjust for accurate flow control.
If the boiler is controlled via slabstat, it’s sensor is likely placed near the shortest loop, closest to the boiler. That loop “sees” the majority of the heat and quickly satisfies the entire system’s call for heat. The remaining loops never get up to temperature, resulting in icy floors.
IMO, simply replacing the heat source will never resolve the issue…it needs some proper balancing and possibly a different pump with increased velocity to function effectively.
About pumps…that’s one massive circulator for the IBA rail heat. That system’s efficiency could be greatly improved with a little re-design to include a tiny, (by comparison) Taco 007 circulator, oxygen barrier PEX supply/return plumbing, and about 12psi of operating pressure. (I hope there’s glycol in that system, too.)
If the boiler is controlled via slabstat, it’s sensor is likely placed near the shortest loop, closest to the boiler. That loop “sees” the majority of the heat and quickly satisfies the entire system’s call for heat. The remaining loops never get up to temperature, resulting in icy floors.
IMO, simply replacing the heat source will never resolve the issue…it needs some proper balancing and possibly a different pump with increased velocity to function effectively.
About pumps…that’s one massive circulator for the IBA rail heat. That system’s efficiency could be greatly improved with a little re-design to include a tiny, (by comparison) Taco 007 circulator, oxygen barrier PEX supply/return plumbing, and about 12psi of operating pressure. (I hope there’s glycol in that system, too.)
I saw the size of that pump too! I was hoping that HCW would read my “Documentary” on floor heat and get some ideas! I have a single Taco 0013 that services 5 zones (4 bays and a loop in the trough). Its 110v and uses only 2a when running. I would say you are spot on with the Taco 007…It only uses about .8a to run. The Taco 00 series pumps are extremely quite. I had to install lights in the circuits just so I could tell they are running.
when we purchased the car wash, we didn't get any info or support from previous owner(it was bank owned) and to make matters worst we didn't know anything about car washes. As far as floor heat, there was some valves that were closed and we didn't know what their function. when the floor heat is plugged in, the pump runs constantly and the burner kicks on, it makes a loud racket while the burner is on untill the outgoing temp reaches 160*(there is a gauge on the outgoing pipe), then the burner turns off untill the outgoing temp drops to 80* then it's all over again, 60 seconds on and 60 seconds off!. When boiler is plugged in, outgoing lines feels hot to the touch and the incoming lines are always cold. BTW the fluid level was low in the vessel when we first bought the car wash and I thought it took green antifreeze because it appeared green and smelled like antifreeze so I added at least 1 gallon of green antifreeze. Also, the IBA track heater set up appears to do an excellent job of circulating hot antifreeze(assuming it is antifreeze) throughout the track.
wash4me
Member
With an infrared camera in hand, you first shut off all loops then one at a time with 15 minutes between turn them on and label the loops. After they are labeled use the camera to even out the loops. This will take more time because an adjustment in flow is going to take time to change temperature. You can take a long screwdriver against your ear and the valve and tell when you are starting to restrict flow. Basically start by restricting all your shorter loops then after several hours look again with the camera. The more dialed in you get it the longer you will have to wait between infrared photos. If your circulation pump on the floor heat has a "flat curve" and is oversized it won't make as much difference if your loops are different lengths. We turn off floor heat to some bays when it's extremely cold to save on the gas bill.
mjwalsh
6 bay SS w/laundromat
wash4me,
Just a thought ... there could be a trade off by shutting the floor heat off by way of the concrete not staying quite as nice because of freeze thaw. Also if sudden very warm (from the south) Chinook Winds come through just before a possible extra busy weekend where you need all your bays ... the cold floor might take longer than planned to get back above freezing for the floor to be safe for washing after their floor heat loops are bypassed temporarily.
This might not apply since you are not as cold as we are here in North Dakota.
mike walsh www.kingkoin.com
cantbreak80
Maybe I need new clubs
HCW,
Your floor heat boiler is a copper tube-fin boiler. Basically, multiple copper pipes are bundled side-by-side above the burner, creating a large instantaneous heater. When the burner fires there must be significant flow through the tube bundle to heat the liquid without producing steam. The vibration, squealing, banging, and other noises you hear indicate insufficient flow through the boiler.
One of the boiler’s safety controls is an automatic High Limit switch. When the liquid temperature reaches the HL, the switch opens, turning off power to the gas valve. The heated liquid exits the boiler and cold liquid takes it’s place…the cooled HL closes, turning on the burner and the process repeats. This is most likely the reason for the burner's short cycling.
The first thing to do is lower the set point of the High Limit...for your safety, the boiler should not be allowed to exceed 120 degrees during testing/balancing. Also, 180 degrees may exceed the floor tubing’s rating. Regardless, 180 is excessive and potentially dangerous…180 is the HL for copper-fin baseboard or radiators used in a space-heating.
Now, look at the copper supply and return manifolds. Is there a pipe and valve connecting the two manifolds? Is the valve closed or open? If closed, open it fully. This is the by-pass which is intended to increase flow through the boiler while also tempering the liquid passing through the tube bundle. Constantly supplying the boiler with very cold liquid creates a tremendous amount of expansion and contraction of the tube bundle. It also keeps the flue gases cool which causes condensation. Condensation mixed with combustion gases creates acidic liquid which drips onto the tube bundle and burner tray. This is not good!
Once you’ve lowered the temperature and restored the primary loop you can now start to balance the floor loops. Close all but 3 or 4 of the ball valves on the manifold and monitor the return temperatures of those that remain open. Once the return loops start seeing increased temperatures, you can start the arduous process of opening more loops to the system. Arduous because the adjustments might take many hours to achieve balance. Did I mention how difficult ball valves are to adjust?
Your floor heat boiler is a copper tube-fin boiler. Basically, multiple copper pipes are bundled side-by-side above the burner, creating a large instantaneous heater. When the burner fires there must be significant flow through the tube bundle to heat the liquid without producing steam. The vibration, squealing, banging, and other noises you hear indicate insufficient flow through the boiler.
One of the boiler’s safety controls is an automatic High Limit switch. When the liquid temperature reaches the HL, the switch opens, turning off power to the gas valve. The heated liquid exits the boiler and cold liquid takes it’s place…the cooled HL closes, turning on the burner and the process repeats. This is most likely the reason for the burner's short cycling.
The first thing to do is lower the set point of the High Limit...for your safety, the boiler should not be allowed to exceed 120 degrees during testing/balancing. Also, 180 degrees may exceed the floor tubing’s rating. Regardless, 180 is excessive and potentially dangerous…180 is the HL for copper-fin baseboard or radiators used in a space-heating.
Now, look at the copper supply and return manifolds. Is there a pipe and valve connecting the two manifolds? Is the valve closed or open? If closed, open it fully. This is the by-pass which is intended to increase flow through the boiler while also tempering the liquid passing through the tube bundle. Constantly supplying the boiler with very cold liquid creates a tremendous amount of expansion and contraction of the tube bundle. It also keeps the flue gases cool which causes condensation. Condensation mixed with combustion gases creates acidic liquid which drips onto the tube bundle and burner tray. This is not good!
Once you’ve lowered the temperature and restored the primary loop you can now start to balance the floor loops. Close all but 3 or 4 of the ball valves on the manifold and monitor the return temperatures of those that remain open. Once the return loops start seeing increased temperatures, you can start the arduous process of opening more loops to the system. Arduous because the adjustments might take many hours to achieve balance. Did I mention how difficult ball valves are to adjust?
Cantbreak80,
Nothing connects the inlet/outlet together BUT, while I was looking at the boiler, I noticed that the flames heating the copper elements was excessive so I turned the natural gas valve down and that took care of the bagging/vibration/other noises. Now it is consistently at 120* and it is always on. So, I think with your help a 3 years old problem is solved! Now Ill follow your advice in figuring out on wich loop is shorter and gated down. Thank you very much to all that voiced their opinion.
Nothing connects the inlet/outlet together BUT, while I was looking at the boiler, I noticed that the flames heating the copper elements was excessive so I turned the natural gas valve down and that took care of the bagging/vibration/other noises. Now it is consistently at 120* and it is always on. So, I think with your help a 3 years old problem is solved! Now Ill follow your advice in figuring out on wich loop is shorter and gated down. Thank you very much to all that voiced their opinion.