Dilution Ratios For Chemicals in Wash Tunnel

[hkim310]

Just trying to get an idea on where we stand in relation to other car wash tunnels in regards to our chemical dilution ratios. Ours are as follows:

Pre Soak - Purple Tip - 120-1
Pre Guns - Pink Tip - 240-1
Wheel Cleaner - Red Tip - 17-1
Wrap Soap 2 - Purple Tip - 120-1
Drying Agent - Pink Tip - 240-1
Triple Foam - Yellow Tip - 90-1
Rain X - Purple Tip - 120-1
Under Carriage - Pink Tip - 240-1
Clear Coat Sealant - Pink Tip - 240-1

We are currently using mostly Simoniz products on 511 Hydrominders for a 120 foot tunnel wash. Wanted to get a better idea on how these numbers look in relation to other washes and their associated chemical dilutions. Thanks!

 

[Earl Weiss]

Are you using foamers for your wrap soap or is it in the solution applied to the material?

 

[hkim310]

Earl, we're using K Stick Foamers for our wrap soap. How do our dilutions stack up with your current dilution ratios?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I do not foam wrap soap. It is not needed for cleaning or lubrication. It does provide a nice show if you are not a sit thru wash.

Dilutions are as follows:

Pre Soak, Bubbler Soap, triple Foam Soap Soap to equipment, Sealer wax, triple foam Polish wax are all ultra lean Pink Tips. That is 360 / 1. Drying agent is pre mixed with 2 to 1 water to concentrate and then Large Purple tip 120/1.

Wheel Cleaner is Large Pink Tip 240 / 1.

Products are all Kleen rite except now using a product called "Foam 5' which a local guy has and he beat the KR price for what I was using. d/A, and wheel cleaner is not KR.

Flo Jets for foaming are set at about 25 PSI to the pump with about 8 PSI air to the foamer. Bubbler is set at about 15 PSI to the Flo Jet.

i also Have Rain X aand Tire Shine.

Here's a quick vieew of the start of the tunnel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ8z5Klq2W4

 

[robert roman]

Long time ago I used to wrestle with all those nasty tips. If you can afford it, I would convert to proportional.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Long time ago I used to wrestle with all those nasty tips. If you can afford it, I would convert to proportional.

I don't know what "proportional" is. Dosatron? metering pumps? Dema Valves?

In any event AFAIAC the tips have been "Set and forget" Sure, every once in a while I need to change a foot valve or throw in a rebuild kit. Had metering pumps once - Got rid of them.

 

[hkim310]

Earl, you are able to get some super low dilutions! When we attempt to go that low, it seems as though there is barely any chemical coming out in the wash tunnel. For pre soak, it does not white out the car and for wrap soap, it is not very thick but more watery. Are you able to get the "show" aspect still looking good at those dilutions?

When you say you do not foam wrap soap, does that mean that you just pump the chemical with no air out to the applicators?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Her are a couple videos - Before I went to tri color triple foam soap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmOOopvTuQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a7Vnh4dypI

I have now switched the overhead bubbler to a new product. Was KR Cherry foam brush.

The issue was never whether I can get a good show at the dilutions, rather having too much and not being able to rinse it off if I did not dilute enough. I have a slight air injection for PS not so much as a foam show but so as not to be too runny. Actualy need some liquid in the car channels to help get the foam out. Solution is sprayed from top and on sides of wrap with no air. Show is not needed for wrap soap. (windows are wet and soapy so it would be barely seen, plus the customer needs to be able to see the tunnel signs from inside the car) and it keeps material clean and well lubricated.

Had a rep tell me to put foamers before my wraps and AFAIAC the only thing it would help was his bottom line. Spoke to Dan at Erie Brush about what was better for brush / cloth lubrication, foam or liquid. he confirmed liquid. Makes sens, the air in the fowm does not lubricate and it does not flush away contaminents.

Now, if you are FS and have people watching from a Hallway the foam always makes for a good show.

I have had at least 5 reps from various big name companies offer to sell me and set up samples to show that they could match the Show, effect, and cost that I got from the KR products. They couldn't and a few were lucky to escape unharmed. At thesame dilutions the stuff either looked watery or was more expensive. Although one guy recently just beat the price / cost for a product to use in the overhead bubbler.

 

[robert roman]

I suggested “proportional” (variable adjustment versus fixed point) because it’s easier to adjust for conditions than aim and shoot with tips.

If I were hkim310, I would not try to match Earl’s ratios because chemical (Simoniz), climate, water quality, product water temperature and most likely equipment (type, material, placement) is different.

Henry Ford was a smart guy.

Instead of letting the cost to build the car decide price of the car, Ford first determined price that would allow him to sell the most number of cars and then he used this price to set the cost of production.

For example, I’m working with someone now who is setting up a new wash and this owner is beginning with price to sell most volume. Base price is $5.00.

Objective of base wash is hand-finished qualities meaning clean tires, at least decent to good rims, no eyebrow, dry and no spots.

If chemical guy is more sales person than technician, call chemical and equipment OEM’s to describe situation and OEM’s will give you good starting points.

From there, its trial and error until the objective is achieved and this point would set cost of goods sold and production.

Here, $5.00 price minus $1.50 variable unit cost equal $3.50 contribution margin.

From this point on, the incremental gain to be made from providing customers more value-added far outweighs the incremental gain from trying to reduce cost.

 

[Whale of a Wash]

While I am SS, a FS is .25 a mile from me. They must be doing everything wrong . Their pricing is 17-27$, and they run very busy and have a good wash. I should have them look at this thread and show them the consultant says the way to make money is to attract the lowest paying customers to be busier. Make less money and wear their equipment out faster. Minimum profits is not a business plan!
Every drop of soap counts on the minimum plan though! Does minimum $ attract the best employees, and pay them better, pay for upgrades, give a better ROI. It probably works in the short term, before the second owner comes along.
Earl is one the best out there and would follow his dilution ratios, especially the wheel cleaner.

 

[robert roman]

"I should have them look at this thread and show them the consultant says the way to make money is to attract the lowest paying customers to be busier."

You could but I doubt they would learn much because I was discussing basic exterior wash.

 

[rph9168]

Those seem to reasonable dilution ratios. The key to it is are you getting good results at a good cost.

 

[Earl Weiss]

..........................
If I were hkim310, I would not try to match Earl’s ratios because chemical (Simoniz), climate, water quality, product water temperature and most likely equipment (type, material, placement) is different.

.

To the contrary, perhaps he should try. It's not rocket science. Try the same products I use, in the same applications. Hook them up in the same manner the current solution is hooked up. See how it works, show and effect. If it's the same or better dial down the dilution and see what happens. Try 5 Gallons of each product.

That is what I did when I tried KR after 30+ years with the sales reps. I found that I could not get the effect I needed / wanted with KR brand wheel cleaner, Drying agent, and of course there is Rain X.

Worst case scenario is you spend $1000.00 or so trying products which will likely work at the same dilution ratio or better. If It needs 50% more product you blew $500.00. If your annual budget for solutions is $20,000 and you can cut dilutions by an average of 20% with same show and effect, you save $4000 a year that falls right to the bottom line.

 

[robert roman]

My experience with setting up conveyor begins with calculating water consumption.

Wash consumption per device is a function of conveyor speed, roller spacing and gallons per minute and equipment length.

For example, a particular pre-soak arch at conveyor speed of 60 cars an hour, 3’4” roller spacing, 6 GPM flow rate uses 3.9 gallons of water per car.

Supplier uses this information to estimate starting point for dilution to meet recommended concentration for particular chemical and use.

Then its trial and error until you are satisfied with “finished” quality. Titrate to determine the concentrations and use them as benchmark to stay on course.

The end product of this process is the base wash.

Next, do online profit centers.

I’ve used other folk’s settings. Only in one instance did it work, same city, same chemistry.

 

[Earl Weiss]

......
Worst case scenario is you spend $1000.00 or so trying products which will likely work at the same dilution ratio or better. If It needs 50% more product you blew $500.00. If your annual budget for solutions is $20,000 and you can cut dilutions by an average of 20% with same show and effect, you save $4000 a year that falls right to the bottom line.

Need to add, when I tried KR or other products for that matter the dilution was only part of the equation. (Show and effectiveness being a given. ) In fact I followed the same procedure. Tried the products at the same dilution. The primary attraction was raw product cost. KR soaps may have cost about 60% of what I was paying. Ath the same dilution they worked as well or better. In some cases like the triple foam Polish I had to cut back otherwise the cars left with foam on them.

So, on an annualized basis if I saved 40% on high usage products like Pre Soak, Soap, Sealer and Triple foam Polish, and I had been spending $20K a year on those things there was an $8000 savings. The higher dilutions saved me some more.

Over the years I have tried a few products that I could dilute more than KR but the cost was double or triple, and the better dilution came no where near off setting the cost.

 

[rph9168]

Trial and error is essential as Earl suggests. It is very important that you understand usage and how to arrive at it if you are going to monitor cost and performance. While I am not trying to suggest that a rep might "fudge" on figures if you chose to go that route you need to know how to arrive and usage information yourself as a backup and have a way to verify how much is being used.

 

[Earl Weiss]

....................... While I am not trying to suggest that a rep might "fudge" on figures QUOTE]

I won't suggest it. I'll flat out say it.

Examples of BS. Will you buy my product of I can match cost and performance? Sure i say.

Thye bring me 5 gallons of stuff, hook it up and it works great. Then they send me a bill for triple what i am paying.

They hook it up and it works great. They tell me it will cost the same because they cut my useage by 20% by reducing the flo jet PSI by 20%. The difference was barely noticeable. Credit to the rep for showing me I could reduce the Flo jet psi and save more with the existing product by sacrificeing some pizzaz if i wanted to.

 

[hkim310]

Learning a lot from this forum. Thanks to all of you for that! I understand that there are a lot of variables involved that make each site different but I do agree with Earl's approach of try and find out. The investment to try is very low and the potential savings could be huge. Will try and compare some prices and see how it goes......

 

[rph9168]

....................... While I am not trying to suggest that a rep might "fudge" on figures QUOTE]

I won't suggest it. I'll flat out say it.

Examples of BS. Will you buy my product of I can match cost and performance? Sure i say.

Thye bring me 5 gallons of stuff, hook it up and it works great. Then they send me a bill for triple what i am paying.

They hook it up and it works great. They tell me it will cost the same because they cut my useage by 20% by reducing the flo jet PSI by 20%. The difference was barely noticeable. Credit to the rep for showing me I could reduce the Flo jet psi and save more with the existing product by sacrificeing some pizzaz if i wanted to.

I think that there are some unscrupulous reps out there as in any industry. That is why it is important for an operator to know how to compute use cost for their own protection from a dishonest rep.

 

[hkim310]

Earl,

Do you happen to know how many ounces of drying agent you are using per vehicle? I'm currently using an LMI pump to dispense the drying agent and I wanted to see if I am in the correct ball park for ounces/vehicle. I am currently using .02 ounces/vehicle.