Converting Metal Halide wall packs to LED

[ScottV]

I'm located in upstate NY and a rep from New York State Elec & Gas (NYSEG) just handed me proposals for converting all of the wall packs at my three washes over to LED fixtures. We have 250W Metal Halide packs at two of the washes and 175W packs at the other.

NYSEG is proposing a Cooper Lumark 30W Crosstour LED fixture as the replacement. They are covering 70% of the equipment / install cost and my payback on the 30% is 23 months from the projected utility savings.

Kind of a no brainer, but my only concern is if the LED fixture they have spec'd will provide the same or similar amount of light. Has anyone seen one of these Lumark Crosstour fixtures in a car wash environment? They gave me a brochure with the requisite illumination charts but I was hoping one of you may have already done this retrofit.

Thanks
Scott V

 

[smokun]

LED Is Much Brighter

Run, Don't Walk... for that deal. YES, LED is significantly brighter... and will remain that way while other traditional fluorescent or incandescent lighting gradually dims over time.

LED lighting will gradually replace traditional lighting in most all applications.

Obvious Bonus: Take your savings and buy stock in LED companies!


HAPPIEST OF HOLIDAY SEASONS TO ALL!!!

 

[MEP001]

Kind of a no brainer, but my only concern is if the LED fixture they have spec'd will provide the same or similar amount of light.

No. The very best LED conversions give only slightly more light per watt than metal halides. Of course if you have more fixtures installed to compensate, you'll have plenty of light, but a 1:1 replacement of 250W metal halides to 30W LEDs will not light well at all.

YES, LED is significantly brighter... and will remain that way while other traditional fluorescent or incandescent lighting gradually dims over time.

That's not true at all. First of all, LEDs get dimmer over time. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they get so weak there's no appreciable output. Second, incandescent lights don't lose output over their life. Third, good quality fluorescents retain 90% of their light output over their 36,000 hour life.

 

[smokun]

Check With Utility For Accuracy

Obviously, we disagree. Judge for yourself.

Never spoke about loss of power; just lumen drop.

The utility will probably offer a test of your facility and measure existing lighting as well as recommend improved LED applications.

It's All Good...

 

[JimmyJaffa]

One way to save money cheaply, is to swap out the 250 bulb for a 175. Should work with the same ballast. We have changed out our metal halide for Flourescent fixtures. Much cheaper conversion, less light, not as bright as the LED's but acceptable. Try E-Conolight for affordable lights.

 

[Randy]

The city of Seattle is changing their street lights over to LED http://www.seattle.gov/light/streetlight/led/ 84.000 street lights. They look a lot better, brighter than the HPS lights.
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/ssl/smalley_seattle_2012rdworkshop.pdf

 

[MEP001]

One way to save money cheaply, is to swap out the 250 bulb for a 175. Should work with the same ballast.

It won't work, but ballast kits aren't too expensive. I've been changing the 340W in the LSI Scottsdales to 250W, and with a good 4100 Kelvin bulb the loss of light isn't even noticeable.

 

[MEP001]

Obviously, we disagree.

Enlighten me, please. You said LED is significantly brighter...brighter than what? The absolute best LED lighting on the market produces 150 lumens per watt. The worst metal halide is about 80. How is a 30W LED going go be BRIGHTER than a 250W metal halide?

 

[ScottV]

I just found this article where RAB recommends a 52W LED replacement for a 250W PSMH wall pack. I'm concerened about undersizing the two sites with 250W wall packs. I think I'll have the one site with the 175's converted and see how that looks before pulling the trigger on the other sites.
http://www.led-professional.com/pro...d-replacement-for-250w-metal-halide-wallpacks

 

[Earl Weiss]

OK, There is something i don't get.

I agree with MEP. The specs don't seem to pan out vis a vis LED lumen / light output.

BUT, as I look at gas station canopies that are converting their (usualy 320 W Scotsdales or 400W MH) to LED's the best i can tell is that the LEDs are at most LSI 84 and possibly less at 143 W yet the lighting is definitely at least as bright as what was there previously.

Questioned a salesman a while ago about lumen output and he only said "The light is diiferent" so ince he was a salesman I figured it was all BS. B

Now it's like "who you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"

TSS sells this unit for $625. I figured it would only save 2-3 cents an hour versus 320 - 400 W. If you burn them 12 hours a day thats $130.00 year. or a 5 year payback. Bulb and ballast replacement might shorten that payback period.

The incremntal cost over a Scottsdale is about 4400.00 so that would be a 3 year payback if you needed something anyway.

 

[Fatboy769]

I replaced (2) 175w metal halide wall packs with (2) 64w LED wall packs, the bay is no where near as bright.

 

[2Biz]

I think I'll stick with my 85W Full Spectrum CFL conversions for the time being....The output is equal to a 350w Incandescent bulb and will last 10,000 hours. So far I've had them in service for 18 months and have not had a single failure...Price $15.51 each from 1000bulbs.com

So far I've saved over $1800 on my electrtic bill by replacing the 175w Metal Halides...

If my wall packs ever need replaced, I'll switch them out with T5HO's and put One on a motion sensor. 2 fixtures for each bay. I currently have one over my changer and it puts out an amazing amount of light. 108w for a two bulb fixture...

 

[MEP001]

BUT, as I look at gas station canopies that are converting their (usualy 320 W Scotsdales or 400W MH) to LED's the best i can tell is that the LEDs are at most LSI 84 and possibly less at 143 W yet the lighting is definitely at least as bright as what was there previously.

The big difference there is the LEDs project almost all the light straight down where it's needed, where the Scottsdales cast the light in a 270° sphere, wasting a huge portion of it.

 

[borumrm]

Kleenrite has a conversion kit for metal halide to LED and a chart that shows the lumens.

http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-36957-led-retrofit-kit-80w-7200-lumens.aspx

 

[Ric]

Kleenrite has a conversion kit for metal halide to LED and a chart that shows the lumens.

http://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-36957-led-retrofit-kit-80w-7200-lumens.aspx

I've gutted several of those wallpacks and replaced the bulbs with these http://1000bulbs.com/product/8257/FC105-S50MOGOD.html I have some over 2 years old with no problem. Check out the reviews on this link...I see a regular on this forum has done the same.

 

[6t7gto]

I have done the conversion RIC speaks of but I had to change the bulb receptacle to medium base as the mogul based bulbs would not fit in my wallpacks.
Extremely bright and white. Very happy with the conversion.
david

 

[1carwash1]

From a lumens per watt perspective, LED's are not necessarily more efficient than metal halide lamps. We recently compared two fixtures, the LED fixture had a source efficiency of 81 watts per lumen and the metal halide had a a source efficiency of 120 watts per lumen. Clearly the metal halide was more efficient in terms of source efficiency. In addition, the metal halide fixture had over twice the lumens output than the LED fixture.
With that said, why is a LED fixture, with a source efficiency less than the metal halide fixture, able to claim
greater efficiency? The answer lies in the losses associated with metal halide fixtures and the ability of an LED fixture to source most of it's lumens where needed. A metal halide fixture has losses associated with the lens, reflector, and the fact that it directs light in all directions. When you add up the losses, the amount of usable light(lumens) projecting on the target can easily be 50% less than the fixture output. On the other hand, an LED fixture can be designed to project a majority of it's output toward it's intended target. This is where the efficiency claims come from. To address the original question, before I would convert a metal halide fixture to LEDs, I would want to make sure that the conversion was designed to maximize the the existing optics. If you look at some of the LED fixtures available, you can clearly see that a substantial amount of engineering went into the fixture optics. Anther thing to consider is the fact these LED fixtures are most likely not as robust as metal halide fixtures in terms of their ability to absorb lightning strikes and voltage irregularities.

 

[Eric H]

I had 2 of my sites converted to LED. In the bays I had 320W LSI Scottsdales that were replaced with the equivalent LSI LED fixture. On the outside of the building the contractor had put up some of the cooper crossover fixtures that you were quoted and I did not like them at all. The light seemed to be concentrated on the wall and immediately below the fixture without much throw away from the building. I had them replace them with this fixture: http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...ucts/outdoor_wall_mount_lighting/_181834.html
Overall I am happy with the look of the wash at night.

 

[ScottV]

This forum is a wealth of opinions, experiences, and real life testimonials that you could never get from a salesman! Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread.

I decided to sign up for 1 of my washes and my mini storage business. I'm going to wait and see how the LED's look at the wash, before converting my other two. The wash I'm having done has fixtures with full cutoff (City requirement) so these LED fixtures should work fine.

I'll report back when the job is complete (~approx 2-3 weeks).

 

[borumrm]

I've gutted several of those wallpacks and replaced the bulbs with these http://1000bulbs.com/product/8257/FC105-S50MOGOD.html I have some over 2 years old with no problem. Check out the reviews on this link...I see a regular on this forum has done the same.

I changed three bays this weekend to the bulbs ric had in his link. Wired directly to 120 V. The three bays on the right are those bulbs and the three bays on the left are 175watt metal halide. Right is slightly whiter and a little brighter but no ballast to deal with and they light right up. I think I will be changing the others over as soon as I can.

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5926/washlights.jpg