Do I really need a sofetner and what size?

[bigleo48]

All,

My softener tanks need replacing (both are leaking between the inner and outer chambers). I have been running on bypass for the winter as cars are very easy to clean (salt and sand).

My city water service varies from 5 to 7 grains hardness. When I first put the system in, I was softening all the water for my IBA (45gals/min HP and 3gals/min LP), along with my two pet washes (about 10gal/min each), my RO system (about 8gal/min). So total max draw was about 75 gal/min. The system was a twin 110000 grains (each tank) 1 1/2" systems.

Since, I have changed the HP rinse to hard water, so that's take a huge amount off the softener load. I was told that at 6 grains avg, soft water was not required for the spot free RO system.

So my questions are...at 6 grains, how much benefit and savings in soap and cleaning does soft water give me and if I need a new system, could I not just go with a much smaller (perhaps even single tank)?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[RykoPro]

Sounds like you could go with a smaller system. You will want two tanks unless you can always regenerate at a time when there is no water being used. Two tank systems are used in car washes so you always have soft water, when one tank is regenerating, you are running off the other tank.

 

[rph9168]

At six grains you probably don't even need soft water. It would help a little but I doubt it would be worth the money.

 

[RykoPro]

six grains is considered moderately hard:

Soft Water- less than 1 gpg

Slightly Hard- 1-3.5 gpg

Moderately Hard- 3.5-7 gpg

Very Hard- 7-10 gpg

Extremely Hard- over 10 gpg

 

[RykoPro]

Make sure it will supply the required GPM for your equipment.

 

[rph9168]

We have many washes in our area where the water generally is 4 to 7 grains that do fine without a softener.

 

[RykoPro]

Do they have RO and is it a touchless? How long do membranes last?

 

[rph9168]

They have touchfree and RO. No problem with membranes. They use a charcoal filter to filter out the chlorine before it enters the RO unit.

 

[audiosnow46]

in my town it's like 25 grains... it's sickening. We def need hard water . But i would agree go with two tanks if you decide to do it so one can regenerate while the other is working.

 

[RykoPro]

Most RO systems have a softener, prefilter and carbon filter. Ryko had a small metal device that would replace a softener if the water was not to hard. all you did was clean it every so often. It was about the size of a candy bar.

 

[mac]

You should consider doing a little replumbing if you replace the softener. All I use soft water for are the chemical mixing and RO. It's just a waste to use soft water for rinsing, in either self serve or automatic. You will end up with a much smaller unit asnd much less salt usage. An alternative to the two tank system is a single tank eith a metered head. When it reaches its softening capacity it regenerates at night when usually no one is there.

 

[bigleo48]

You should consider doing a little replumbing if you replace the softener. All I use soft water for are the chemical mixing and RO. It's just a waste to use soft water for rinsing, in either self serve or automatic. You will end up with a much smaller unit asnd much less salt usage. An alternative to the two tank system is a single tank eith a metered head. When it reaches its softening capacity it regenerates at night when usually no one is there.

Mac, Yeah I've already done this, so just RO, Soaps and petwashes are using softened water. HP rinse and undercariage is hard.

 

[RykoPro]

I agree with Mac about only using the soft water for RO and presoak (at the very least). The single tank regenerating at night can work, you just have to make sure the clock on the softener is always correct. Any power outage will reset the clock and cause problems with regeneration times. My single tank home softener is pretty cool, the resin tank sits inside the brine tank (no sweating), to set it up, all you do is enter when you want it to regenerate and the water hardness. The softener meters water usage and regenerates only when needed at the specified time.

 

[bigleo48]

six grains is considered moderately hard:

Soft Water- less than 1 gpg

Slightly Hard- 1-3.5 gpg

Moderately Hard- 3.5-7 gpg

Very Hard- 7-10 gpg

Extremely Hard- over 10 gpg

Thanks Rykopro...with this chart you mean from a carwashes point of view (soap effectiveness)...correct?

 

[bigleo48]

They have touchfree and RO. No problem with membranes. They use a charcoal filter to filter out the chlorine before it enters the RO unit.

Thanks RPH...so your a chem guy correct? So should I be able to measure the difference (if there is any) in a titration test?

 

[RykoPro]

Hardness is hardness whether its at home or in a car wash.
Titration are the levels the manufacture wants the chemical set at. Titration is proprietary to the product.

 

[bigleo48]

Hardness is hardness whether its at home or in a car wash.
Titration are the levels the manufacture wants the chemical set at. Titration is proprietary to the product.

RykoPro,

I know my titration levels for the products I am using, however I'm not measuring any difference in titration level with or without softened water. So is that because it won't show up in titration, or because 6 grains is not enough to make a noticeable difference? My thinking is that the 6 grains is not sufficient to change the pH of the products enough for me to measure it, thus has no noticeable effect on washing performance. Is this line of thinking not correct?

 

[rph9168]

It is not likely that you will be able to find a difference when you titrate. I agree that using soft water for rinsing is a waste. Actually hard water does a better job rinsing since it increases surface tension. Using soft water for mixing chemicals can really reduce cost if you have hard water. At around 6 grains that is a borderline call whether the amount of chemical you may save by using soft water is worth the extra expense of soft water.

Most quality chemicals have ingredients that enhance their ability to work with hard water that compensate for a some water hardness. In some cases to save cost, chemical companies may not include those ingredients in a product that is labeled only for touchfree systems. That is why some chemicals recommended for touchfree use may not be the best choice in a friction wash.

 

[dreese]

Titration is a process used to measure the unknown concentration of a known reagent in a given solution. In this case, it is used to measure the concentration of a specific chemical (soap) in your water. For this reason, you would not necessarily measure a difference in titration level (concentration) between a soft and hard water sample.
The basic reason to use soft water vs hard water is efficiency of the chemical. All things being equal, the soap does not have to "clean" (react with) soft water before reacting with the organics on a vehicle as it does with hard water. Therefore, a given concentration (titration level) will not clean as well in hard water as it will in soft.
There are RO systems that are designed for use with hard water (as mentioned above by RykoPro). Crane Mfg, for example, sells such a unit that incorporates a "magnetic exciter" which is plumbed before the pump and is designed to temporarily realign the calciate molecules in the incoming water stream and reduce the load on the production membranes. All membranes must, however, be protected from chlorine by use of a carbon prefilter.

 

[pitzerwm]

With a hardness of 9, I could tell immediately if the softener wasn't working by the lack of foaming of the soap. Since we are selling the sizzle, I wouldn't live without the softener. But I agree with rinse not needing to be softened, however, it will take longer to rinse a car if its soft water.