Do you have a right to know?

[pitzerwm]

Steve don't bother discussing with Doug, what the facts really are. Doug's job here is to either find a minor flaw in the premise or make something up that wasn't there in the first place. We all know that there is no law requiring you to disclose anything or that they have the "RIGHT" to such info. All of the operators that give a damn will read this and decide how much the customer needs to know to keep them happy. If you ask Doug what time it is, he'd probably tell you how to make a watch. Or that you didn't have the "RIGHT" to ask him.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Steve, I did go back and watched the vid after I posted (before your responce) and I see him dancing on the head of a pin. Earl's point was (I thought from reading his post) that Thornsby was stating that the consumer has a right to know. Well the consumer may wish to know (KFC would decline to tell you their 11 herb & spices) what we use, but unless it poses a significant health, safety or property risk (which they did not prove with Mike's do to unsafe conditions or handleing as percribed by the labeling)... again I desent in my opinion here (not surprising to most). Mark might not have stated clearly his intent, but why should I "read his inflection"? The consumer can sue me, that is his "right" until some maniac takes it away under the guies of "tort reform". Till then C U in Court (if I were Mike's) for slander!

 

[Earl Weiss]

>>>Mark Thorsby was simply walking a very thin line, cognizant of the diversified views of his ICA Board of Directors. He did just fine juggling! <<

FWIW IMO he dropped the balls. All of them. He should have simply said what some said above, The operation is noted for it's professionalism, and the industry prides itself on the safe use of cleaning solutions, leaving out nay negativity which taints us all.

 

[buda]

Gentlemen:

Isn't the point here really "whether car washes should be using hydroflouric acid and it's sister or not?

If you had a sign at the entrance to the wash announcing that you used "acid" on the finish of the vehicle I wonder how many customers would choose to take their vehicles through.

Why is it we now call the touchless process "two-step" washing process instead of acid/alkaline?

Why is are the acid chemicals no longer called, acid cleaners, but "low-ph?"

If operators choose to use acid chemicals then they had better be ready for the consequences as Mike's Carwashes have discovered.

I ask you, is it environmentally responsible and operationally responsible to employees and customers to use hydroflouric acid in a carwash?

Bud Abraham

 

[MEP001]

Using the term "acid" to blanket all products that contain acid, whether it's hydrofluoric or citric, just doesn't make sense.

 

[Ben's Car Wash]

Using the term "acid" to blanket all products that contain acid, whether it's hydrofluoric or citric, just doesn't make sense.

That's is so true. And a "base" like lye can be just as damaging to skin and the finish of a car. Some strong bases can not be neutralized easily. There is nothing wrong with using "low pH and high pH" because that is what determines what an acid or a base is. It's only "how low" or how buffered and the ion reaction (floride in HF case) that makes it dangerous. If that "argument" (it has been made for years) we should elimintae Floride from public water systems and tooth paste because of it's affinity for Ca+ (this is why it works so well and why we add it to water and tooth paste).

It's like those stupid ladders with labels all over them! "Caution do not stand on ladder while standing on cat while painting left handed and drunk". How many warnings do you need to handle something blantently dangerous?

 

[Chiefs]

Again, if you are using chemicals that eat metal, can etch glass, and are deadly if employees or customers come in contact with them, its time for you to get out of the car wash business and find another line of work. If your customers knew you were using these products on their vehicle, they would not come back. If you're operating on the up and up perhaps its time to alert your local newspaper or TV stations if you know of those who use these chemicals on people's cars. There is no place for HF in this industry.
If we permit some to use it then we are guilty by association. Its time for the industry to do some policing of its own.

Again, most operators who use HF do so not because it works, rather because it works and its because it is CHEAP, without regard for its possible consequences.

Oh, and its easy to tell when someone is using it because of the odor and the burning of eyes and nose. Its hard to imagine operators exposing their employees to HF and similar products. When they have a Worker's Compensation claim (and they will eventually) they will also face a civil suit and possobly even criminal charges as well.

Its amazing how some people can sleep at night!

 

[rph9168]

The problem with alerting any local media about car washes using HF is that most people would then think all or most use it and might cause them to stop using a professional wash all together. It reminds me about the touch free ads that claimed they did not scratch cars. Right after it came out in our area some of our customers began questioning whether scratches they had on their vehicle were our fault and we were a touch free wash.

There must be some effort for us to police ourselves. There needs to be an effort within the industry to identify products with HF or ABF (because some operators are using it and don't even know it) and better education on the dangers. The last thing we want is for the government (or the general public)to get involved in our backrooms. That's like letting the fox into the chicken coop.

 

[Waxman]

Using a low-ph product doesn't mean it's HF or ABF. My low ph is neither and my cars come out super in my IBA. I cannot use this type acid because I have a $900 swivel on my machine that would wear out quickly if I did.

I'm sure many many IBA's use harsh acids for cleaning power, but not all of them do. I'm also sure that many cleaners used in tunnels aren't exactly great for the human body.

Be careful what and whom you condemn!

 

[rph9168]

There seems to be some confusion here. All acids are not HF or ABF. There are some perfectly fine low pH products on the market today that do not contain HF or ABF. Most are a blend of other types of acids. Unfortunately they tend to be more expensive than products containing HF or ABF and do not clean as well but are worth the extra money since they are much safer to equipment, employees, or customers.

Just because an operator doesn't use HF or ABF they should still should exercise caution when dealing the chemicals they use. There are many products in the equipment room that should be handled very carefully - especially those with a high caustic content or any high pH product in concentrated form. Usually those are tire/wheel cleaners, some high pH products used in a touch free wash and any product that claims to be a strong cleaner. Products like those can do as much or more damage to a vehicle as any acid, especially in hot weather and could cause potential injury if they come into contact with bare skin or eyes. I would highly recommend that the equipment room always be locked and only people that have been fully trained on the products they are using and the equipment should have access to it.

Another word of caution. There area several tunnel/wall/equipment cleaners on the market that say they do not contain HF but do contain ABF. Read the label or MSDS sheet on your tunnel/wall/equipment cleaner to make sure it does not contain HF or ABF.