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Flat belt conveyors
- Thread starter mac
- Start date
rph9168
Carwashguy
Thank you for the leads. These flat belts,IMO, will add a little tabasco sauce to this industry. I think any consumer looking at these verses the traditional chain will decide in a heartbeat. Steve, I read your article from Modern Car Care about these belts, but was dismayed when absolutely no reference was made to a manufacturer. As usual, this site provided the answers. Thanks again all.
Fair & Balanced
Sorry, but my articles are intended to remain fair and balanced to all suppliers, so no mention of a recommended favorite seems appropriate.
However, there is only one supplier to my knowledge that enjoys some unique technology that is protected by US patents. An earlier article in Modern Car Care (Australia's Hand Wash Cafe) quotes an owner of a chain of Flex-Serve washes in Australia recommending the company. They have the moving-floor conveyors in their carwashes and after-care detail operations, and are delighted with performance and customer satisfaction.
If I can be of any further assistance, contact me directly.
Sorry, but my articles are intended to remain fair and balanced to all suppliers, so no mention of a recommended favorite seems appropriate.
However, there is only one supplier to my knowledge that enjoys some unique technology that is protected by US patents. An earlier article in Modern Car Care (Australia's Hand Wash Cafe) quotes an owner of a chain of Flex-Serve washes in Australia recommending the company. They have the moving-floor conveyors in their carwashes and after-care detail operations, and are delighted with performance and customer satisfaction.
If I can be of any further assistance, contact me directly.
Steve,
Nice article on the pros of the flat belt conveyor, but you failed to mention any cons other than a brief reference that the cost is greater.
In fact the cost is at least 3-4 times that of a traditional conveyor.
Also, you neglected tomention the fact that automatic tire shiners cannot be utilized.
Lastly, there was no mention of the cost of maintenance, longevity or reliability vis-a-vis traditional conveyors which has to be the number one factor when considering such an investment
Not to rain on your parade, for these flat belt conveyor do provide significant safety features for both rims and employees.
As for obtaining a competitive advantage, I suppose that would apply to vehicles that cannot track down a traditional conveyor like Porche's or duelies. However, as far as 99% of consumers going to one car wash over another because one has a flat belt conveyor? Please, most of the customers do not even know what equipment your using to wash their car as long as you do it, quickly, safely and effectively.
Like all new products, when the flat belt conveyors come dow in price where they are comparable (or even slightly higher) to the price of traditional conveyor, then you'll see operators making the switch.
One last thing, besides the cost of the flat belt, what would be required and how much cost would be involved for an existing car wash to transition from a traditional conveyor to a flat belt?
Nice article on the pros of the flat belt conveyor, but you failed to mention any cons other than a brief reference that the cost is greater.
In fact the cost is at least 3-4 times that of a traditional conveyor.
Also, you neglected tomention the fact that automatic tire shiners cannot be utilized.
Lastly, there was no mention of the cost of maintenance, longevity or reliability vis-a-vis traditional conveyors which has to be the number one factor when considering such an investment
Not to rain on your parade, for these flat belt conveyor do provide significant safety features for both rims and employees.
As for obtaining a competitive advantage, I suppose that would apply to vehicles that cannot track down a traditional conveyor like Porche's or duelies. However, as far as 99% of consumers going to one car wash over another because one has a flat belt conveyor? Please, most of the customers do not even know what equipment your using to wash their car as long as you do it, quickly, safely and effectively.
Like all new products, when the flat belt conveyors come dow in price where they are comparable (or even slightly higher) to the price of traditional conveyor, then you'll see operators making the switch.
One last thing, besides the cost of the flat belt, what would be required and how much cost would be involved for an existing car wash to transition from a traditional conveyor to a flat belt?
Magic Carpet Ride
The upfront cost is definitely an issue, as is the fact that the current tire shine relies entirely on a rolling tire, but those issues are relative to conventional systems.
Tire dressing can be applied by a spraying system that doesn't require a rolling tire, and as an additional benefit, it takes up considerably less floor space. Those same spray applicator systems can be used in conventional systems too.
As for initial outlay, at face value, the flat-belts are more expensive. But, operators who are using them agree that the additional cost is offset by the belt's powerful competitive marketing advantage of eliminating the risks of tire & wheel damage or injuries associated with conventional chain & roller & guide rail systems. It seems like the perfect way to safeguard against sudden unintended acceleration risks... and will probably enable operators to request insurance premium adjustments due to their considerably safer operation. PLUS, the upgrade of a flat-belt is so conspicuous that customers notice the improvement immediately! Customers love it.
(more...)
The upfront cost is definitely an issue, as is the fact that the current tire shine relies entirely on a rolling tire, but those issues are relative to conventional systems.
Tire dressing can be applied by a spraying system that doesn't require a rolling tire, and as an additional benefit, it takes up considerably less floor space. Those same spray applicator systems can be used in conventional systems too.
As for initial outlay, at face value, the flat-belts are more expensive. But, operators who are using them agree that the additional cost is offset by the belt's powerful competitive marketing advantage of eliminating the risks of tire & wheel damage or injuries associated with conventional chain & roller & guide rail systems. It seems like the perfect way to safeguard against sudden unintended acceleration risks... and will probably enable operators to request insurance premium adjustments due to their considerably safer operation. PLUS, the upgrade of a flat-belt is so conspicuous that customers notice the improvement immediately! Customers love it.
(more...)
More Magic!
Flat-belt conveyors provide a much smoother ride and eliminate the free-wheeling push-roll travel we've all grown accustomed to over the years.
The plastic belts are warrantied for 500,000 cars, so their longevity and considerably lower maintenance makes them much more friendly to live with in the long run. They're extremely quiet and provide operators a completely flat floor with no trip-and-stumble injuries.
Flat-belt conveyors don't require a correlator, which eliminates a lot of headaches. And they can take any size tire width and also eliminate low clearance problems associated with exotic sports cars... and you can forget about the limitations caused by low slung exhaust or suspension systems.
One system I've observed actually reduces the space need for loading cars at the entrance because it can actually grab the front wheels and pull the vehicle onto the belt, thus eliminating the need to wait for a roller or allocate space to launch the car.
My understanding is that upgrading from a conventional conveyor is relatively quick and easy because the flat-belt moving-floor uses a shallow trench for an in-ground retrofit. One manufacturer has also developed a moving-floor surface conveyor and claims that it requires no concrete work.
(even more...)
Flat-belt conveyors provide a much smoother ride and eliminate the free-wheeling push-roll travel we've all grown accustomed to over the years.
The plastic belts are warrantied for 500,000 cars, so their longevity and considerably lower maintenance makes them much more friendly to live with in the long run. They're extremely quiet and provide operators a completely flat floor with no trip-and-stumble injuries.
Flat-belt conveyors don't require a correlator, which eliminates a lot of headaches. And they can take any size tire width and also eliminate low clearance problems associated with exotic sports cars... and you can forget about the limitations caused by low slung exhaust or suspension systems.
One system I've observed actually reduces the space need for loading cars at the entrance because it can actually grab the front wheels and pull the vehicle onto the belt, thus eliminating the need to wait for a roller or allocate space to launch the car.
My understanding is that upgrading from a conventional conveyor is relatively quick and easy because the flat-belt moving-floor uses a shallow trench for an in-ground retrofit. One manufacturer has also developed a moving-floor surface conveyor and claims that it requires no concrete work.
(even more...)
And A Little Bit More!
Bill, I've been around this business since pull-chains and pusher bars, and remember when the on-demand conveyor took the industry to a much more refined operational level. That's when we happily got rid of spinner tire & wheel washers and steam jenny headaches... and learned to love the comparatively low maintenance of horizontal wheel washer brushes and the c-t-a.
I sense the same evolution will occur when equipment manufacturers adjust to a non-rolling wheel technology. But it likely won't come without equipment supplier resistance because anytime the status quo is challenged by progressive improvements, the guys with a warehouse full of inventory and technology that appears to be obsolete usually don't concede without a struggle. Same thing was true with the transition from poly bristle brushes to cloth washing material. Bottom-Line: Change that brings improvement is inevitable.
Hope this adds to your understanding.
Bill, I've been around this business since pull-chains and pusher bars, and remember when the on-demand conveyor took the industry to a much more refined operational level. That's when we happily got rid of spinner tire & wheel washers and steam jenny headaches... and learned to love the comparatively low maintenance of horizontal wheel washer brushes and the c-t-a.
I sense the same evolution will occur when equipment manufacturers adjust to a non-rolling wheel technology. But it likely won't come without equipment supplier resistance because anytime the status quo is challenged by progressive improvements, the guys with a warehouse full of inventory and technology that appears to be obsolete usually don't concede without a struggle. Same thing was true with the transition from poly bristle brushes to cloth washing material. Bottom-Line: Change that brings improvement is inevitable.
Hope this adds to your understanding.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Lots of good points, but 'm lost on this one. If the car is going to accelerate, whetehr intended or not, it will do so on a flat belt or regular conveyor. Please explain.
Bill, I think the tire shine issue can be resolved rather easily. Not with a CTA type spray, but with most conventional units. The tire will still need to roll as it exits. The Unit could be placed thre. Of course, for many units you might still need some sort of rail system which might negate some advantage.
A unit like th eViper shine does not really need a rail tp guide the car, it only needs one if you want to protect it from people who can't drive straight.
Earl the system I saw had the customer put the car in park when they got on the flat conveyor.
As for as putting the conventional tire shine equipment at the exit you may have the problem of the customer turning on the car, putting it in drive and driving to fast through the tire shine equipment.
When I looked at the flat conveyor the only way I could see getting a consistant tire was using your Viper system.
As for as putting the conventional tire shine equipment at the exit you may have the problem of the customer turning on the car, putting it in drive and driving to fast through the tire shine equipment.
When I looked at the flat conveyor the only way I could see getting a consistant tire was using your Viper system.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Just for the record, although I have 3 Viper units, it is not "My" system.
I understand the putting it in Park concept. The issue comes with having the customers Find "Park" just like they can't always find Neutral, or the shift indicator is not working properly. Then you have the same issues of not properly shifing into Drive when exiting possibly going in reverse or having their foot on the accelerator when they shift.
Also not sure what happens with the flat belt on a front wheel drive car that stays in Park and the front wheel leave the conveyor.
Park or Emergency Brake
Earl...
I've seen the use of "park"... and for those customers who are prone to confusion, the emergency brake is a sensible alternative.
All the sites I've seen either have staff oversight or signage & traffic controls (TSS amber and green lights that indicate go or wait). A few locations with no attendant oversight simply use sign & traffic control in their express exterior.
As well, the installations I've seen have a collision avoidance system that safeguards against customers dozing off at nap time. Maybe hooking up a loud ah...ooogah horn will help
Not sure what it might do to an old U-boat sailor.
Earl...
I've seen the use of "park"... and for those customers who are prone to confusion, the emergency brake is a sensible alternative.
All the sites I've seen either have staff oversight or signage & traffic controls (TSS amber and green lights that indicate go or wait). A few locations with no attendant oversight simply use sign & traffic control in their express exterior.
As well, the installations I've seen have a collision avoidance system that safeguards against customers dozing off at nap time. Maybe hooking up a loud ah...ooogah horn will help
Not sure what it might do to an old U-boat sailor.I wonder what the cost would be if you split the belt into 3 sections. If you could put the car in neutral, granted you have level concrete, when it comes on the belt then have it go down the first belt. When you get to the tire brush have the car exit onto concrete and the first belt continue rolling the car. Then when the front tires enter the second belt it will pull the car back on the belt and the same for the tire shiner.
Maybe the above makes sense. It would probally be cost prohibitive but I was just thinking.l
Maybe the above makes sense. It would probally be cost prohibitive but I was just thinking.l
This has been real informative. The general consesus seems to be that this will follow the samr route as most product developments, such as color TV. As it becomes more widespread, and it will, the cost will continue to come down. BTW, when color TVs first came out sometime in the 50s I think, they were about 3,000. These flat belts just look too good not to take a large portion of the market.
Ron Pickett at Carisma car wash in Houston uses flat belts in his express. The last time I talked to him I think they worked out the tire shine problem. If you are sincerely interested in the concept I recommend you talk to him and perhaps see if you could visit his site. He is a heck of a nice guy and really smart. He also thinks outside the box when it comes to operations/equipment, which I like. I may shoot him an email and see if I can get him to join the topic.
So if I understand this right, I would have to replace 150' of belt every 5-6 years. Can you tell me what the cost of 150' of belt is (approximately). I'm guessing that the belt itself is the biggest cost of the flat belt conveyor.
Also, what powers the belt? Electric motor? What other wear items are there besides the belt?
Lastly, what are the effects on the belt of extremely cold weather and road salt. I would think that road salt would dry out the belt prematurely. What are the effects of extremely cold weather (zero and below) on it? If snow and ice are blown off the car onto the belt, is there a potential for damage to the belt?
Also, when you need to perform maintenance say on mitters, top brushes, or the tops of high pressure arches, can you simply place ladders on the belt without causing any damage to it?
Also, what powers the belt? Electric motor? What other wear items are there besides the belt?
Lastly, what are the effects on the belt of extremely cold weather and road salt. I would think that road salt would dry out the belt prematurely. What are the effects of extremely cold weather (zero and below) on it? If snow and ice are blown off the car onto the belt, is there a potential for damage to the belt?
Also, when you need to perform maintenance say on mitters, top brushes, or the tops of high pressure arches, can you simply place ladders on the belt without causing any damage to it?
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
All Good questions. I would like to narrow the parameters . So we can be more specific. For instance, a conveyor 100' long would need about 210 Feet of belt assuming 5' at each end for the turn. If it lasts 500,000 cars and if similar parts like a take Up, Sprocket, and Bearings would need to be replaced, IF this were estimated at $25,000 including labor you have a 5 cent a car maintenance factor.
My Flapan Chain, rollers and doodads for 3"6" roller spacing would probably be under $10,000.00 but I typicaly would get about 400K cars before replacing so the factor is 2.5 cents a car.
So the big question is what is that cost? Or can you recoup your cost thru greater marketability?
so how has this trend played out?
so where are things with flat bed conveyors and non rolling wheel techonology? i bet more accidents because people have gotten used to putting their cars in neutral.
Bill, I've been around this business since pull-chains and pusher bars, and remember when the on-demand conveyor took the industry to a much more refined operational level. That's when we happily got rid of spinner tire & wheel washers and steam jenny headaches... and learned to love the comparatively low maintenance of horizontal wheel washer brushes and the c-t-a.
I sense the same evolution will occur when equipment manufacturers adjust to a non-rolling wheel technology. But it likely won't come without equipment supplier resistance because anytime the status quo is challenged by progressive improvements, the guys with a warehouse full of inventory and technology that appears to be obsolete usually don't concede without a struggle. Same thing was true with the transition from poly bristle brushes to cloth washing material. Bottom-Line: Change that brings improvement is inevitable.
Hope this adds to your understanding.
so where are things with flat bed conveyors and non rolling wheel techonology? i bet more accidents because people have gotten used to putting their cars in neutral.