Foaming Tire Brush Help

[loewem]

I have four self serve bays with foaming tire brush in each. I'm struggling to get the brushes to foam consistently and I've read and tried everything I could find on this forum about foaming tire brushes. When I turn the brush on in any bay it will foam good for about 15 to 20 seconds then turn to liquid for 10 to 15 seconds, back to foam, etc. When I turn off the foaming tire brush it will continue to run for a minute or so...usually foaming pretty good. Right now the best I can get it to work is by setting the air requlator for the air to 80 PSI and the air regulator for the flo-jet pump to about 95 PSI.

Here is what I've tried so far:

- changed the tips for the hydrominder and used no tip at all.
- replaced the pickup foot and used no pickup foot at all.
- replaced the flo-jet pump with a new one.
- replaced the air regulators and the hoses from the regulators to the air manifold and the hoses to and from the flo-jet.
- removed and cleaned all the solenoids.
- replaced the check valves that are just prior to the curly hose in the bays.
- installed an extra foame I hadr.
- made foamers out of PVC and cleaning scrunchies.

I think that is everything I've tried. Any thoughts/ideas would be appreciated. I've attached a few pictures so you can see what I've got.

Not sure what make the chemical is, but based upon some internet searches maybe Warsaw?

Thanks

Mike

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[MEP001]

The fact that it continues to foam for a minute after it shuts off says that whatever is there to mix the air and liquid to make foam is too far from the bay.

 

[Earl Weiss]

setting the air requlator for the air to 80 PSI and the air regulator for the flo-jet pump to about 95 PSI.

Here is what I've tried so far:

- replaced the check valves that are just prior to the curly hose in the bays.
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IMO you are trying to put 10lbs in a 5 LB Sack. Pressures are way too high. Too much of a good thing will kill the foam by squeezing too much air and liquid thru the hoses / brush. Try 30 PSI to the Flo Jet then try 5-10-20 for the air.

next Just for kicks swap out a 3/8" HP Hose for the curly hose.

 

[cantbreak80]

Why are there check valves?
I'd remove them and follow Earl's pressure setting suggestion.

 

[2Biz]

If your using 1/4" poly tubing to the bays, you might try increasing the poly to 3/8". There is roughly 6 times less pressure/flow restrictions with 3/8 compared to 1/4". After recently upgrading my FB system, I tried 1/4" and had the same issues as you. Changing to 3/8" poly solved the problem for me. You might get away with just changing out the liquid line? There is more restrictions in piping trying to push liquid compared to air.

Since you have to run so much more pressure to overcome flow restrictions, whether poly size or distance, it takes awhile to bleed off all that extra pressure. That's why the FB continues to flow after you turn it off. Going to 3/8" poly will help, but will not eliminate it all together. Any system has to bleed off.

I run 60 psi on my flojet but use needle valves throttled to 20 oz per minute and mixed air is set to 30 psi. Having the FJ set up like this helps eliminate any pressure drop in fluid flow when all bays are on at the same time.

If you want verify the pressure restriction difference between 1/4" and 3/8", there are a number of online friction loss calculators you can try. This one will work:

http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php

 

[2Biz]

By all means! Ditch those C/V's first like CB80 suggests ....If you still don't get the results your looking for, then re-read my post!

 

[PaulLovesJamie]

all good advice so far.
Building on what MEP said, where to you T together the air and soap? It should be in a manifold right at the top of the boom, not in your equipment room.

 

[2Biz]

His foamer and Tee is right above the curley hose. There is a link to the picture in his post.

 

[cantbreak80]

Appears that the liquid lines are 3/8". I wonder if the foamer is packed too tightly? Naw, probably not. But since it's feeding a brush, the foamer could also be eliminated.

 

[loewem]

Wow, thanks for all of the responses, insight and explanations. I'm hoping that today will be busy at the wash, so I will give your advice a try tonight and let you know what works.

I appreciate the quick and thoughtful responses to my question as well as all of the other information that you all of have shared on this forum.

Mike

 

[MEP001]

Now that I see the foamer, they're probably right about the pressure. Try starting the liquid pressure at 40 with the air off until you get a steady but very slow flow, then increase the air pressure until you get the foam you want. If you can't get it adjusted like that, try eliminating the foamer and just use a tee fitting.

 

[2Biz]

Loewem, you got your FB working any better yet?

 

[loewem]

I tried the suggestions from everyone and nothing worked. As I worked through it one bay stopped putting anything out, so I took the manifolds off the unit and cleaned them out and cleaned out the solenoids again. Still nothing from the same bay. I took the foamer off and still nothing. Chemical and air would come out of the hoses when I disconnected them in the bay, so I took the curly hose off and blew air through it. Still nothing, so I took the brush handle apart and it turned out to be the problem. I had to take every brush handle apart, pull the foaming material out of it, clean it and put it back together. They were all clogged up. I guess that was caused by the wash sitting for a year before we purchased it. I've got it working okay now, but I think the flojet pump might be too powerful for the unit. I've got the floject air at about 20 psi and the air at about 5 psi. That is the best I've been able to get it to work for all bays. It is pretty good now, so I'm not going to mess with it again until I get through a few more things that I want to improve.

Thanks for all of the responses and help. I've got a few more things that I've worked on and improved over the past year that I'll probably post and ask for help with. I've got everything working good, but looking at some of the videos you've posted I think I can tweak some things to make them better.

BTW - I really like the analogy from Earl Weis about putting 10 lbs into a 5 lb bag. That is very helpful in trying to figure all the low pressure equipment out.

 

[MEP001]

The FloJet isn't "too powerful," in fact it may be stalling because you have the pressure set so low. Try it at about 40.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The FloJet isn't "too powerful," in fact it may be stalling because you have the pressure set so low. Try it at about 40.

FWIW In the Tunnels I have lots of FJ set at 10-15 PSI with no issues.

 

[cantbreak80]

Loewem,
Your brush handles were clogged? There's foaming material in the handles AND the foamer pods. You don't need both!
Try operating the system with the brush handle removed from the hose. I'd suspect the handle material is being forced into a wad by the pressure and blocking the output. The tire cleaner will probably shoot out of the hose like shaving creme.

I had a similar issue with some foamers that I built. The material compressed and ended up being pushed out of the pod, effectively plugging the outlets.

 

[MEP001]

FWIW In the Tunnels I have lots of FJ set at 10-15 PSI with no issues.

It could be the flow or back-pressure from air for foam, but I've had no luck running them that low. If I try to run the FB at 25 PSI, the gauge drops to 0 and sits there for a second or two before the pump cycles again.

 

[2Biz]

It could be the flow or back-pressure from air for foam, but I've had no luck running them that low. If I try to run the FB at 25 PSI, the gauge drops to 0 and sits there for a second or two before the pump cycles again.

That's why needle valves are nice....Turn your Flowjet up to about 60 psi and set volume with the needle valves. This way the flojet keeps a more constant pressure against your solenoids. No matter if you have 1 or 4 fb's runing at the same time. I ran into the same problem as Mep described with too low of pressure on the FJ. Pressure would drop to about zero before pumping again.

 

[MEP001]

That's what I do, Earl doesn't believe in needle valves. I've tried to get the results he does without them but I can't.

 

[loewem]

I took the foamers I made off along with taking the check valves off. It is working the best it has worked, the bays are just inconsistent. I've had the problem with the flo-jet locking up/stop pumping, but that seems to happen when I use too much air. I do like the needle valves which I have for pre-soak and foam brush. I've found it easier to be consistent from bay to bay. There is another low pressure manifold with needle valves that isn't in use right now. It was used for tire cleaner. The previous owner abondened it for the tire brush and a tire shine option. We took the tire shine out. I'm thinking about what we might use the abandoned low pressure manifold for. Knock on wood I feel pretty good about how everything is working now, just a matter of tweaking things here and there. Going to start installing a credit card reader on a self-serve bay tomorrow morning.

Thanks for all the help.

Mike