Foamy rinse water

[MEP001]

LP systems are all separate on my set up. Each in their own tanks, each on their own lines out to a manifold above the bay. (Post pump)

Did you check it as I described? The low pressure systems are not fully separate because they tee in at the same boom. I have seen the low pressure applications back up through the high pressure line, through the pump, and into the "rinse" tank many times.

 

[Martins]

Did you check it as I described? The low pressure systems are not fully separate because they tee in at the same boom. I have seen the low pressure applications back up through the high pressure line, through the pump, and into the "rinse" tank many times.

yes, so today i even went a step further, earlier today the water was normal no issues, rinsing as should, so in tipped my soap back up, went there tonight and found the water again was foaming.. after letting it run for a while i went and turned off all the soap lines to the bay, went through each one and let it get the last bit out then let the water run. still foamy even after 15 mins, turned on the wax let it come thru, shut it back off at the valve went back out and it was still foamy however much less. but still foamy. took a bottle and took a sample from the rinse water and shook it up, no foam no cloudiness. took a sample from the gun while on rinse, very foamy and cloudy, after sitting for a bit foam still present but cloudiness gone. disconnected all the weep lines, re ran test water still foamy... im down to, is the line being glazed, or is the new pump aerating the water? im going nuts, and i need to fix it before my customers start getting pissed and leaving. what else to try other then just replacing all the lines?

 

[MEP001]

New pump aerating the water wouldn't cause foaminess in a shaken sample bottle.

Could there be a breach in the tank between the soap and the "rinse?"

Does your actual rinse selection get water from the tank or from the plumbing through a solenoid?

 

[Martins]

New pump aerating the water wouldn't cause foaminess in a shaken sample bottle.

Could there be a breach in the tank between the soap and the "rinse?"

Does your actual rinse selection get water from the tank or from the plumbing through a solenoid?

does this help? rinse water is separate tank all together. pump grav pull water from rinse tank, HP soap and WAX sel are in line with that same line pre pump. chem is injected as the water goes into the pump out to the bay. Manifold at top of bay for air, Tire cleaner, and presoak only.

 

[cantbreak80]

It's possible your bay supply hoses are saturated with soap, especially if they're original to the installation.

Easy way to test...remove the bay supply hose and install a new, short length of high-pressure hose in the equipment room. Run the pump on Rinse with the short hose into a clean bucket or drum. If the water remains clear then the bay supply hoses are saturated and should be replaced.

Many years ago we would extend the life of saturated hoses by installing "wax timers". When customers selected Rinse, the timer would energize the wax solenoid for 5-10 seconds. The wax would clear the line and "coat" the bay hose core for several minutes. It was a temporary solution giving the operator some time to replace the bay hoses. Synflex or stainless steel bay supply tubing eliminates the problem entirely.

 

[MEP001]

rinse water is separate tank all together.

It's really not. That's why I keep putting "rinse" in quotation marks. In your case, the tank supplies water to the high pressure pump for every function. I was trying to determine if the water with rinse selected was coming from a different source from a solenoid, but it looks like it's not. Soap, wax, and rinse all pull from that tank.

I assume you never ran this test I described in a previous post. IMO this is the most likely cause of your problem.

A low pressure chemical could be backing up into the tank. I have seen this happen many times, and it requires a bad pump inlet check valve AND a bad pump. (Addendum: you don't even have a check valve on the pump inlet) The easiest way to check for this (assuming the spot free check valves are at the boom) is to run each bay on a low-pressure function (tire cleaner or presoak) for 30 seconds, don't need the trigger pulled, then run it on spot free with the trigger until it runs clear plus a good 15 seconds or so, then run it on rinse. Nothing but water should come from the gun. If you get any significant amount of the low pressure tire cleaner or presoak, the pump is the problem. Check all the bays this way.

 

[Martins]

It's really not. That's why I keep putting "rinse" in quotation marks. In your case, the tank supplies water to the high pressure pump for every function. I was trying to determine if the water with rinse selected was coming from a different source from a solenoid, but it looks like it's not. Soap, wax, and rinse all pull from that tank.

I assume you never ran this test I described in a previous post. IMO this is the most likely cause of your problem.

A low pressure chemical could be backing up into the tank. I have seen this happen many times, and it requires a bad pump inlet check valve AND a bad pump. (Addendum: you don't even have a check valve on the pump inlet) The easiest way to check for this (assuming the spot free check valves are at the boom) is to run each bay on a low-pressure function (tire cleaner or presoak) for 30 seconds, don't need the trigger pulled, then run it on spot free with the trigger until it runs clear plus a good 15 seconds or so, then run it on rinse. Nothing but water should come from the gun. If you get any significant amount of the low pressure tire cleaner or presoak, the pump is the problem. Check all the bays this way.

I just want to make sure were on the same page because i think there's a confusion between us haha. my hp soap and wax are in their own tanks neither are LP. water is in its own tank. HP soap and wax are both HP and injected pre pump into the water inlet correct. my LP systems are tire cleaner which is its own tank and water, ran out to the manifold above the bay (not through the pump) and pressure is via flojet to the bay. same with pre soak.

The test you suggest i can not do as i do not have spot free. also all the pumps are new if that factors in to the test at all.

 

[Randy]

This is tough one to solve. Try temporally connecting the hydrominder to cold water and see if that makes a difference. Has it always been foamy from the rinse tank? You might want to consider installing a swing check on the water supply feeding the pump.

 

[Martins]

This is tough one to solve. Try temporally connecting the hydrominder to cold water and see if that makes a difference. Has it always been foamy from the rinse tank? You might want to consider installing a swing check on the water supply feeding the pump.

i was thinking about this as well however i would have to convert the whole pump stand back to cold as i have 1 water feed to the stand then its t'd off to each tank. i am starting to lean more and more towards the lines themselves as i do have hard water, and lthe lines are older, every time i replace on the build up inside of them is groosss so im wondering if its just holding excess soap then trying to rinse away. im going to try the straight from the pump trick i think, ill make sure the bay is acting up then swap out the line and see how that looks as well. like i said though its random at this point. all the solenoids are new, and all my soaps are scented and colorful when i take a sample from the gun there's no sent or color just foam, when i take it from the tank its clear no foam. also running hot water at 120 degrees

 

[MEP001]

I just want to make sure were on the same page because i think there's a confusion between us haha.

I assure you there's no confusion on my end. I've worked on probably 500 different car washes all over Texas and Oklahoma, including equipment that's identical to yours.

Since you don't have spot free, the test I suggested definitely won't tell you anything. Since your pumps are new you probably don't have anything backing up through them. By that I mean your tire cleaner CAN push backwards through the high pressure line above the boom, through the pump and into the tank, but I suspect that's not your issue since you also have a high pressure check valve on the outlet of each pump. So they are not fully separate unless they're on a separate gun in the bay.

The only thing I can think of would be a bad weep check valve that's letting high pressure soap back into the same line that feeds the "rinse" tank.

 

[Martins]

I assure you there's no confusion on my end. I've worked on probably 500 different car washes all over Texas and Oklahoma, including equipment that's identical to yours.

Yes this is why i thought there was confusion, I wasn't saying it trying to be augmentative at all. in fact your experience is exactly why i wanted your input but trying to give you all of the information i could, including a pic of my set up so there was a better understanding of what I'm working with. but i thought there was confusion because i was saying i didn't have a softener system or RO system so when you asked if i ran the test as described i was trying to make sure we were on the same page is all.

i also ran the weep test you and the other member said to run checking the check valves as well. All of them checked ok as well, even while under pressure. Ill attached a pic of my manifold as well if that will help add more information. I am leaning to the lines needed replaced but want to make sure i am exhausting every other option/test before i do. because you mentioned no check valves on the rinse tank i ordered some for that to eliminate it as a possibility as well.

ill attach the manifold in the next post

 

[MEP001]

I feel like every possibility has been eliminated except the lines. Someone mentioned using Synflex which is what I use, it's pretty expensive, about twice the price of Continental Neptune 3000, but it's good and will last decades as long as you don't let it freeze or rub anywhere. It can handle a few freezes without damage but it will eventually fail. I slide a piece of 3/4" ID hose over it where it goes through the pump stand to protect it from any rubbing.

 

[Martins]

I feel like every possibility has been eliminated except the lines. Someone mentioned using Synflex which is what I use, it's pretty expensive, about twice the price of Continental Neptune 3000, but it's good and will last decades as long as you don't let it freeze or rub anywhere. It can handle a few freezes without damage but it will eventually fail. I slide a piece of 3/4" ID hose over it where it goes through the pump stand to protect it from any rubbing.

I think that is where I'm at.. just ordered all the lines, i checked out that synflex also. i have vibration from my pumps still so i think that might cause rubbing issues in the trough, so I'm gonna stick with the continental for now! haha ill update everyone as i replace them for results.. and if this doesn't fix it ill just burn it down.... jk jk

 

[nave15]

Hi Martins what did you find for your solution? Having the same issue!

 

[Martins]

So some what of an update. i have yet to replace the lines because.. well.. its too damn cold out. i have them all but wanted to find a stop gap until i could replace them. so after a lot of people kept saying it was the hot water tank (even though i have bran new tankless heaters) i started thinking about the reason why the tank was mentioned. Then i thought i wonder if i can descale my lines and if that would help. so i did some digging and started with a easy idea and ran about a gallon of white distilled cleaning vinegar through my tanks and lines. then i rinsed them out completely and got a gallon of CLR, dumped half that into the rinse tank and killed the water to it. let it run 3/4 of the tank and killed the pumps. let the clr sit in the lines for about 5-10 mins, Then turned the pumps back on and ran them for another 5-10 once i started to notice the CLR foam dissipating, i killed the pumps and drained the rinse tank and rinsed out all the chem from the tank, filled it up with cold water and ran the pumps again for 10 mins to clean everything out. turned the hot water back on ran them until the hot water started coming out. shut them down and left it for the night. went back up there washed my truck switched out to rinse and as far as i can tell the bubbles/foam is no longer present. either it worked really well or its just one of those days that its not doing it. but I'm going to keep checking until its warm out.

Either way it feels like a positive result.

(now to look into a water softener system to prevent this in the future... Ginsan lets talk!)

 

[Martins]

Hi Martins what did you find for your solution? Having the same issue!

Just posted! ^^

 

[tdlconceptsllc]

Tankless are known to scale up quickly on the heat exchangers I have seen it still with soft fed supply water. 2x a year run white distilled vinager on a circulating pump to clean exchanger.

 

[Martins]

another update! disregaurd foamyness is back.. so didnt work......... ugh back to the think tank

 

[cbchevy4x4]

1 way to isolate the problem would be to use a different water supply when you see the foamy "rinse" water. isolate the water supply by pulling your supply lines off the rinse tank to the pump and use a 5 gallon bucket of "fresh" water instead. If its still foamy then turn your soap ball valves off so the pump doesnt draw soap. If its still foamy id say your lines are glazed. To check that hook up a new hp hose directly to the pump and try it, if foamyness goes away then its your lines.

 

[Martins]

Just an update, weather finally broke so ill be swapping my lines soon. however i shut off my hot water and turned everything back to cold and all foamyness is gone! also... wtf... bran new heaters and all... im still leaning to my lines holding soap and the warm water taking forever to rinse them out just like when doing dishes.