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FRP panels without silicone?
- Thread starter vashick1
- Start date
Washmechanic
Washmechanic, Ibas. ss,
We buy FRP from Kal-Lite a division of Kalwall Corp. in Bow, New Hampshire. Eight and ten feet panels are considered standard lengths. They will cut to order up to 50ft. in lenght. We buy their trims rather than Home Depot's or Lowes because their J and H chanels are a full inch in with and give you some working room. We Fasten it with Nylon anchors from Fastenal Corp. Because you can select any length you want and the Nylon anchors aren't brittle and won't crack and break like the hard plastic anchors. Have ordered numerous times by phone and service was very good.
Washmechanic
Washmechanic, Ibas. ss,
We've never used glue or silicone to fix the panels to the walls on our installations. We felt without glue the panels could expand and contract due to seasonal temperature changes. We haven't had any problems in six years time. We did use clear silicone to fix the vertical end J chanels to the FRP panels, not the walls. With a little practice, we learned to put a fine bead deep in the chanel to glue the chanel without a messy squese out. In all, we've installed nearly 100 4x10 ft. sheets and 44 14 ft. sheets without any real problems.
Without the glue do you put the rivets 12 oc or 16 oc.
A local distributor recommended 12 oc if glue was not used on the panels.
How about mounting signs, just mount normally? One suggested putting spacers behind the signs for expansion.
Also do you leave an 1/8" gap between the dividers?
A local distributor recommended 12 oc if glue was not used on the panels.
How about mounting signs, just mount normally? One suggested putting spacers behind the signs for expansion.
Also do you leave an 1/8" gap between the dividers?
Twodose, you`ve already heard about leaving some clearance around the rivet so the panel will have room to expand and contract. I use a Hilti hammer drill. The drill bit is a quarter inch but the part that fits into the drill is 3/8. While drilling
the hole through the panel keep pressure on the drill so that when the 1/4 hole is drilled the 3/8 portion of the bit will push in through the panel.When finished you a 1/4 hole in the wall with exactly a 3/8 in the frp.That portion of the drill bit is smooth and tapered. It doesn`t really cut through but it makes a nice hole the right size. If you don`t have a Hilti drill I believe Bosch makes a bit like this that you can use in most any hammer drill. The process really goes fast and saves time and most of all is accurate. Sixteen inches is good for the rivets. Slide the panel tight into the divider and mark it a couple of times with a pencil then you can space it about 1/8. I wouldn`t put more than 3/8 at the bottom, some say 3/4 but that`s too much for me. The last one I did I bought 12 foot panels cut them to six feet and bought some red panels and cut them to sixteen inches and put a red border just above the six foot panel and then continued on up with the beige panel. I don`t buy white. I use the light beige, might have been called sand. The short panels are easy to work with. Good luck, you can do it.
the hole through the panel keep pressure on the drill so that when the 1/4 hole is drilled the 3/8 portion of the bit will push in through the panel.When finished you a 1/4 hole in the wall with exactly a 3/8 in the frp.That portion of the drill bit is smooth and tapered. It doesn`t really cut through but it makes a nice hole the right size. If you don`t have a Hilti drill I believe Bosch makes a bit like this that you can use in most any hammer drill. The process really goes fast and saves time and most of all is accurate. Sixteen inches is good for the rivets. Slide the panel tight into the divider and mark it a couple of times with a pencil then you can space it about 1/8. I wouldn`t put more than 3/8 at the bottom, some say 3/4 but that`s too much for me. The last one I did I bought 12 foot panels cut them to six feet and bought some red panels and cut them to sixteen inches and put a red border just above the six foot panel and then continued on up with the beige panel. I don`t buy white. I use the light beige, might have been called sand. The short panels are easy to work with. Good luck, you can do it.
MEP001
Well-known member
You're probably referring to an SDS bit. A good hammer drill will have that instead of a standard chuck. I paid $190 for a Porter Cable hammer drill that works as well as a $500 Hilti and has so far lasted for many years and many thousands of holes in concrete.Wally said:
Washmechanic
Washmechanic, Ibas. ss,
Twodose, 16 oc is fine for rivets and we mounted signage normally with out spacers, the same for mat hangers, ect. Per Wally, 1/8 inch spacing is good and easy to do with the wide chanels that we got from Kal-Lite. As Wally said, it goes quickly and a good hammer drill and a couple of bits are essential. To speed up the process, we made up a 10 ft story pole to mark the rivet locations. For us, getting the first panel plumb was the most critical, after that everything else falls into place.
What size fasteners do you use? I know 1/4", but how long. I am going into cinder block.
Do you stagger the fasteners on opposite panel edges and next to the division bar to get a flat seam?
You said this:
"We did use clear silicone to fix the vertical end J chanels to the FRP panels, not the walls. With a little practice, we learned to put a fine bead deep in the channel to glue the channel without a messy squeze out."
I don't understand this because if you put the silicone deep in the channel you still have to pull it out 1/8" for expansion? Even if you put a small amount of silicone in it still has to make contact with it for it to work, right? Or are you saying you put less in so it does not ooz out? Maybe you could explain a little more detail. Sorry I'm so anal., but I want to get this right the first time.
By the J channels I assume you mean the trim on the beginning and end of the panels, and possible a cap if you use that?
I don't think you would want to put silicone on the dividers, correct?
Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it.
Do you stagger the fasteners on opposite panel edges and next to the division bar to get a flat seam?
You said this:
"We did use clear silicone to fix the vertical end J chanels to the FRP panels, not the walls. With a little practice, we learned to put a fine bead deep in the channel to glue the channel without a messy squeze out."
I don't understand this because if you put the silicone deep in the channel you still have to pull it out 1/8" for expansion? Even if you put a small amount of silicone in it still has to make contact with it for it to work, right? Or are you saying you put less in so it does not ooz out? Maybe you could explain a little more detail. Sorry I'm so anal., but I want to get this right the first time.
By the J channels I assume you mean the trim on the beginning and end of the panels, and possible a cap if you use that?
I don't think you would want to put silicone on the dividers, correct?
Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it.
Washmechanic
Washmechanic, Ibas. ss,
We used 1 inch rivets for both cinder block and brick.
Yes we staggered the placement on the edges to get a flat seam. Your first panel will have rivets at approximately one and a quarter inches, 16 inches, 32inches and 46and 3/4 inches. Then your H chanel, a rivet at 16, 32, and 46 and 3/4 inches. This pattern will repeat itself until you get to the end of the wall and then you will finish the panel with a row of rivets in one and 1/4 inches from the edge and a J chanel. You can set the rivets closer to the edge if you want, all you have to do is clear the H chanel with the rivet head.
Here I,m using the term H chanel as you use division bar. Also by J chanel, I am refering to the trim at the end and top of the wall panels. As Wally said you want to leave an 1/8 of an inch for expansion in the division bars. but we did not leave this space on the end or top trims as they didn't but against anything and had room to expand. Thus we glued them tight to the FRP panel with a fine bead of silicone to hold them in place as there is no other way to fasten them. It's pretty easy with two guys, since the chanel is nylon and will spread to allow the tip of the silicone tube to nearly reach the botton of the chanel. One guy holds the chanel and the other the silicone gun.
Two suggestions to ease your mind. One, take a couple of sheets of typing paper and do a trial lay out of one of your bay walls. This will show you how many panels and division chanels etc. that you will need, especially the number of rivets. Using 10 ft. sheets and 24 and 1/2 ft. bays with returns, we used something in the range of 2,000 rivets for four bays including all the signage. Second, go to a Lowes or Home Depot and check out the FRP panels and trims and rivets just to get familiar with it.
Yes we staggered the placement on the edges to get a flat seam. Your first panel will have rivets at approximately one and a quarter inches, 16 inches, 32inches and 46and 3/4 inches. Then your H chanel, a rivet at 16, 32, and 46 and 3/4 inches. This pattern will repeat itself until you get to the end of the wall and then you will finish the panel with a row of rivets in one and 1/4 inches from the edge and a J chanel. You can set the rivets closer to the edge if you want, all you have to do is clear the H chanel with the rivet head.
Here I,m using the term H chanel as you use division bar. Also by J chanel, I am refering to the trim at the end and top of the wall panels. As Wally said you want to leave an 1/8 of an inch for expansion in the division bars. but we did not leave this space on the end or top trims as they didn't but against anything and had room to expand. Thus we glued them tight to the FRP panel with a fine bead of silicone to hold them in place as there is no other way to fasten them. It's pretty easy with two guys, since the chanel is nylon and will spread to allow the tip of the silicone tube to nearly reach the botton of the chanel. One guy holds the chanel and the other the silicone gun.
Two suggestions to ease your mind. One, take a couple of sheets of typing paper and do a trial lay out of one of your bay walls. This will show you how many panels and division chanels etc. that you will need, especially the number of rivets. Using 10 ft. sheets and 24 and 1/2 ft. bays with returns, we used something in the range of 2,000 rivets for four bays including all the signage. Second, go to a Lowes or Home Depot and check out the FRP panels and trims and rivets just to get familiar with it.
Thanks for the detailed description of how it is done, this is what I was looking for, someone who has actually installed it and knows how to do it correctly.
Couple more questions:
You put a sheet on the wall with all the pre-drilled holes, you put the first couple rivets in to hold in place, now that you are in place and every hole that you drill has to line up with the pre-drilled hole, the problem I always have is getting dead center with the bit and the pre-drilled hole, it is not always possible to get the bit started dead center in the pre-drilled hole in the panel, do you have a method for this? This is something I foresee happening since you will be drilling a couple thousand holes or more.
What wally said may make this task easier, since you would be drilling the hole for the rivet and the hole for the panel at the same time.
Also using rivets for signs: They are nice to use and they go in easy, until you have to take them out. Is there an easy way to get the rivets out, do you know if they make a tool for removing them?
Couple more questions:
You put a sheet on the wall with all the pre-drilled holes, you put the first couple rivets in to hold in place, now that you are in place and every hole that you drill has to line up with the pre-drilled hole, the problem I always have is getting dead center with the bit and the pre-drilled hole, it is not always possible to get the bit started dead center in the pre-drilled hole in the panel, do you have a method for this? This is something I foresee happening since you will be drilling a couple thousand holes or more.
What wally said may make this task easier, since you would be drilling the hole for the rivet and the hole for the panel at the same time.
Also using rivets for signs: They are nice to use and they go in easy, until you have to take them out. Is there an easy way to get the rivets out, do you know if they make a tool for removing them?
I'm not doubting you Wally, I believe it will work and am going to try it. I am in the middle of a major remodel and decided midstream to use the FRP instead of painting, The contractor is going to put the panels up, but he doesn't have allot of experience installing FRP, so I am going to help them get started putting them up, I just want to make sure it gets done right.
Every bit of information helps and I appreciate this Forum and all the advice and tips I am getting from everyone.
MEP001
Well-known member
Removing the plastic rivets is tricky because they tend to break off inside the hole. Some of them actually have a slot in the head of the pin and threads on the shaft so you can unscrew the pin and pull out the rivet with a claw hammer, but again they tend to break off inside the hole more often than they will pull out whole. If you drill the holes twice as deep as need (or through the brick/block) you can just push them through with a new retainer, but now you have a problem of the hole having been expanded by the old pin and a new one may not hold.
Experiment with a cinder block and you'll see what I mean.
I know someone who installed FRP on painted cinder block walls using nothing but Liquid Nail. It's been up about ten years - I'll go by tomorrow if I have time and see how it looks as far as buckling concerns go. I know they heavily criss-crossed the backside of the panel with adhesive, stuck it to the wall, pulled it off and re-stuck it as recommended, and left no room for the panels to buckle with expansion.
Experiment with a cinder block and you'll see what I mean.
I know someone who installed FRP on painted cinder block walls using nothing but Liquid Nail. It's been up about ten years - I'll go by tomorrow if I have time and see how it looks as far as buckling concerns go. I know they heavily criss-crossed the backside of the panel with adhesive, stuck it to the wall, pulled it off and re-stuck it as recommended, and left no room for the panels to buckle with expansion.
car washing systems inc
Member
When we do wall board we use a plywood templet, one sheet of plywood with 1x3 on two sides to help hold the sheets and them clamp the other sheet of plywood to it that has been pre drilled with the spacing, then you can drill about 6-8 sheets all at once. we do not use any silcone we leave a little space for expansion. If you are using sheets longer than 8' just extend the plywood .
Washmechanic
Washmechanic, Ibas. ss,
JMMUSTANG, you've got me, as soon as I posted my reply, I had the same thought as you.
Twodose, In all the installations that we have done, we pre-marked the rivet locations on the sheets with a story pole, but we drilled the panel in place on the wall. We haven't had any problems with expansion.
Car Washing Systems Inc has a good suggestion if you want to go with pre-drilling the FRP panels. For all around general masonary drilling, I've found Masonary bits by Dewalt to be the best I've found. They are made in Germany and have a brad point on the tip that helps control the bit from wandering when you start a hole. They are reasonably priced and last.
As to removing the anchors, it is tricky because in the Fastenal anchors, the center pin is hard plastic and the outside is a softer nylon. So when you try to drill the rivet out, the drill bit will veer off center. I over come this by drilling out the center pin with a succession of small to larger sharp bits. After this you can usually catch the remains of the rivet with a needle nose pliers. Last week I replaced a full set of signs and had to drilll out 48 anchors, half in cinder block and half in brick. It went OK. Where there was any question of the hole being worn, I injected silicone and then set the new anchor in it. The silicone sets quickly and the anchor is good. I've done this over the years when changing signs and haven't had any problems with expansion or the anchors failing.
Twodose, In all the installations that we have done, we pre-marked the rivet locations on the sheets with a story pole, but we drilled the panel in place on the wall. We haven't had any problems with expansion.
Car Washing Systems Inc has a good suggestion if you want to go with pre-drilling the FRP panels. For all around general masonary drilling, I've found Masonary bits by Dewalt to be the best I've found. They are made in Germany and have a brad point on the tip that helps control the bit from wandering when you start a hole. They are reasonably priced and last.
As to removing the anchors, it is tricky because in the Fastenal anchors, the center pin is hard plastic and the outside is a softer nylon. So when you try to drill the rivet out, the drill bit will veer off center. I over come this by drilling out the center pin with a succession of small to larger sharp bits. After this you can usually catch the remains of the rivet with a needle nose pliers. Last week I replaced a full set of signs and had to drilll out 48 anchors, half in cinder block and half in brick. It went OK. Where there was any question of the hole being worn, I injected silicone and then set the new anchor in it. The silicone sets quickly and the anchor is good. I've done this over the years when changing signs and haven't had any problems with expansion or the anchors failing.
