Help me break in!!

[SanDiegoSS]

Bought a SS wash just under a year ago and its been going great but.... here is the first problem that I simply can't figure out.

We have two vaults that tokens and coins drop down into from the in bay meters. They are secured with a cylinder lock which is removed prior to opening via a hex wrench that turns a bolt. See pics of an open one below.

Here is the problem, on one of the vaults the nut that the bolt fits into has worn down so when you turn the bolt you simply turn the nut. There is nothing for it to catch onto since it is so worn. I know this is the issue because the other vault had the same problem but I was able to wriggle it enough to get it to catch on to something and unscrew. Replace the nut and we were good to go - not so lucky on this one.

What we have tried so far -
- several hours of putting the hex wrench in at different angles hoping it would catch.
- Injecting insulating foam into the gaps hoping it would give the nut something to catch on to.
- Putting a hex wrench onto a drill and spinning the bolt like crazy hoping it would catch.
- Sliding a metal driver down the hole into the gap between the bolt and side of the hole and hitting with a hammer - the bolt is stronger than the metal driver and the metal driver snapped.
- trying to stick a wire through the gap next to the bolt and hoping it would go up over and around so that it would get to where the nut is and give it something to catch onto.

So my 2 questions-

1. Anyone had this before and know of way to do this without damaging the vault?
2. If that is not a possibility and I have to hire someone with an acetylene torch to cut through it - where do you buy replacement vault doors?

Thanks in advance!

Dan

 

[JGinther]

Have you tried using an impact allen and driving in (tightening)? Dont go very far with it though! If the nut is seized onto the bolt, that might make it break the seize free, then possibly it might unthread. Do you think the nut is seized on the bolt at the threads? Next thing I would try is to tack weld the allen into the bolt and pull while reversing the allen using an impact driver after I was sure the nut wasn't seized.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

It might take forever, but possibly grind the lock sleeve away so that the door will slip off over it? The sleeve/barrel looks like the common barrel that are in washes everywhere. I'm guessing this is one of LL's old washes. I've not seen a door like that, looks like it's been around since before Christ was a corporal.

After rethinking, even if you got the lock barrel ground out, you would still have to grind the head off the bolt. What you've got here, is a bit of a situation...

 

[Earl Weiss]

Had an issue with one once where hex head was worn and tried various sizes of Flat blade screwdrivers and one caught enough to turn the bolt. Another option would be if the bolt was not spinning or would tighten down if you frilled into the center with a 1/4" cobalt bit deep enough for an easy out to grab hold.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

I don't think his issue is with the bolt. I think the nut is no longer captured and is spinning in it's little enclosed area. This is a tough one for sure.

 

[Randy]

It looks to me like the bolt is seized to the nut and has broken loose from its housing in he back. This is normally caused by poor maintenance, rust, and lack of lubrication and overtightening the bolt. The only thing I can think of would be to cut a hole in the face of the coin vault cover just above the plug lock, large enough to get at the nut in the back of the housing. Use a grinder to cut the hole then have it welded back together. You can’t cut stainless steel very well with an acetylene torch it makes big mess, you need a plasma cutter to cut stainless.

 

[chaz]

Good luck. Short term fix for getting money out is maybe shop vac from the electronics panel to suck coins from vault...reverse coin vac. And maybe block the tube so no new money drops down. Obviously need to empty coins way more often

 

[Dan-Ark]

If you can wedge the cap screw (allen bolt) for some resistance, then take a dremel tool with a good carbide bit and make the hex hole rounder and deeper till the outer part of teh cap screw breaks off then the cover/drawer etc will come off so you can fix it. It might work. never tried it, but I would if I was in your position.

 

[MEP001]

My suggestion would be to take a drill and a bit large enough that you can go in at somewhat of an angle, it would have to be 3/8 or bigger so you can get on top of the Allen bolt instead of inside the hex, and with as much angle as possible, and just drill. It will slowly grind the bolt down until the head falls off, then you'll be able to remove the door. You'll almost certainly destroy the plug lock barrel, but that is a small cost. I have safe vaults that are very similar except they're drawers instead of doors, probably even the same equipment manufacturer (D&S). I'll take some pictures of what I'm talking about if that helps.

 

[SanDiegoSS]

I thought this may get a good discussion. Thanks for all the tips. to answer some questions:
I don't know if the nut is seized on the bolt. I do know that the about of force to unscrew the nut is more than the amount of force that the nut gets on the side of it from its little seat. (does the make sense? )IB Washingcars is correct the nut just spins freely in its little enclosed area.

Forgot to add that I have started to try and drill through it, seems like this would take days though. I have good drill bits and it hardly makes a dent.

Jginther makes an interesting point, I don't think i have room to tack weld the hex key to the bolt but if I could get the hex key to be stuck in the bolt and pull on it as I unscrew it maybe the nut pulling against the metal would be enough for it to get a grip.

Luckily this is at a location that mainly uses credit cards, we have just been pulling coins directly out of the meter panel and blocked the tube down to the vaults.

It was definitely overtightened, coupled with a worn nut we have our problem.

anyone know where to buy a replacement before I go get some C4?

 

[JGinther]

anyone know where to buy a replacement before I go get some C4?

I'm pretty sure those faceplates were what Mark VII installed in the early 80's. That's all I know though. Maybe Weben? So probably not going to find a ready-made replacement. If creative solutions don't work, and drilling is troublesome, maybe measuring out the location of where the crossbar is welded to the faceplate and plasma cutting a square around each one, so it could be welded back in place afterward?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Like someone said, if you grind the exterior collar of the Lock housing perhaps it ill drop down out of the way and then you can get a needle nose vise grip on the bolt to pull on it and perhaps with some tension it will unscrew from the nut.

 

[OurTown]

Try getting a solid handle type T handle hex wrench (or make one) and some thin shim stock to take up the difference in size from the socket. Then you can pound it in with a hammer so it wedges it in with the shims. You then can pull back on it some to possibly get the nut to grab. It is at least something to try before going to more destructive methods.

 

[MEP001]

Try getting a solid handle type T handle hex wrench (or make one) and some thin shim stock to take up the difference in size from the socket. Then you can pound it in with a hammer so it wedges it in with the shims. You then can pull back on it some to possibly get the nut to grab. It is at least something to try before going to more destructive methods.

This might work. Could also try the 5-minute cure JB Weld putty, rolling up a small ball of it, sticking it on the end of the T-handle, pushing that into the nut and waiting five minutes for it to cure, then try pulling and turning. The quick cure JB Weld isn't very strong and it shouldn't be too difficult to get the T-handle back out if it doesn't work.

 

[mjwalsh]

Most of us know or experienced that stainless threaded to stainless does have "seize risks" sometimes worse than zinc to stainless. My question is I wonder if some grades of stainless are less likely to seize??? Sometimes when I buy bolts they give me an option on the grade of stainless the manufacturer uses.

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Most of us know or experienced that stainless threaded to stainless does have "seize risks"

His bolt doesn't appear to be stainless.

 

[Randy]

Just a thought. grind out the plug lock housing so you've got a bigger hole and then try to work a piece of bent flat bar in back of the nut and then try turning it. If you have to buy a replacement cover any steel fabricator should be able to make you one.
There probably using a Grade 8 hex head bolt so it'll be a challenge to try and drill it. the bolt is more than likely seived into the nut from over tightening.

 

[LisaLyons]

You are right IB - this is my old wash. They are 30 + year Mark VII vaults. We talked to Dan tonight and I told him if anyone knows what to do you guys would help! Miss you guys - you are the best!

 

[I.B. Washincars]

Miss you guys - you are the best!

There's nothing that says you can't drop in and visit us every now and then. We old timers miss you too. Will see you in Vegas next year.

 

[LisaLyons]

I will try to. I lost my login & just found it again! See you in Vegas!