My automatic uses Hi PH presoak only. I was thinking of adding two step Hi/ Lo PH presoak. Is the 2 step presoak what most people are using? Is it worth the extra costs to convert to 2 step presoak?
Hi, Lo PH presoak
- Thread starter sparkey
- Start date
Jeff_L
Well-known member
I was using only the high PH presoak up until last fall. I was noticing it was tough to get some of that summertime grime and eyebrows off the cars. So I added in the low PH as well and offer it in my top two packages. Seems to be cleaning cars a lot better now. I have touchless autos, so any extra cleaning power I can get helps!
Jeff_L
Well-known member
I cannot segregate what goes where, so both hi and low go down the same nozzles. I use an older hydrowash system which has a top and side spinner. All chemicals take the same route and use the same nozzles. I switched to vjet nozzles about a month ago and hope to get a year or two out of them.
RykoPro
Technician/Manager
We have found the opposite! Our Alkaline product works so good we have converted all of our two step machines to double pass Hi PH passes. Easier to order chemicals and every site likes it better than using acid (cleans better too). Its been a win win deal.
Greg Pack
Wash Weenie
I've been a long term advocate of very strong (boosted presoaks) hi followed by a "show: pass of weak high. I'm playing with a new line of chemicals and have gone back to two stepping with lo/hi. I really can't tell any improvement in the cleanliness of the cars, but they are drying much better and have a better shine. If I was to do this unboosted I would probably go hi/lo.
Waxman
Super Moderator
What is boosted presoak?
Isn't Blendco hi-ph not low?
Is Blendco a boosted presoak?
Isn't Blendco hi-ph not low?
Is Blendco a boosted presoak?
Greg Pack
Wash Weenie
Sorry for the late reply. I had forgotten that I posted here. I consider Blendco "boosted" although thats not a correct terms. A two-part system would be more accurate.
I if understand correctly Blendco gets all or a significant portion of alkalinity from their powder. The powder is likely a mixture of common alkaline builders, sodium or potassium hydroxide and/or sodium metasillicate. I don't know which and in what percentages. Most other one-drum presoaks have all products in the same container, including the alkaline. When you mix all these products into a drum with each other, you can only mix them so strong before they become unstable. You have to add expensive couplers or dilute with water until the solution is stable. So, Blendco can make their liquid very concentrated because they don't have to worry about the products interfering with each other prior to being diluted with water. I found Blendco to be a pretty effective product, but I also found it the level of effectiveness was directly related to the level of alkalinity in their product. When I reduced alkalinity of Blendco down to other one-drum presoaks, the magic went away. Consequently, when I raised the level of alkalinity of other products by "boosting" them with NaOH or KOH their cleaning ability increased enormously. Caustic is very cheap too. Now, there is concern that there are not appropriate buffers in the mixture, but I've found a level of alkalinity that is generally safe in my area and cleans very well. Qual-chem is chemical line based on this principle. You buy one base cleaner, Q clean, which I assume is close to neutral, then you add the acid or alkaline builder to it based on what you want to do with it.There are some other mfgs that have implemented "bosters" in their line. Ecolab sells 380, which is for the most part sodium hydroxide and (I've been told) some chelating agents. Warsaw sells "Hotshot" etc. Quest is line I've recently played with that I'm quite pleased with, also. Without exception, each presoak I've tried has to be boosted to that magic level of alkalinity for it to work as well as the standard. Having said all that, i realize that I'm just "burning" the dirt and film off. There are some hazards associated with that. But once you start down the road of high alkalinity, you paint yourself in a corner. Your customers expect a certain level of cleanliness that can only be provided by this high alkalinity. I'm looking for the magic product that doesn't have to be boosted to work as well as previous solutions, I've yet to find it. When a mfg stumbles on that they'll make a killing.
I still consider Blendco a good product and good concept and would recommend that line to other operators, especially those that don't want to tweak their own solutions. But the same concept can be done much cheaper by active operators that like to play with their wash chemistry.
But back to the original post. I've not had much luck with non-HF lo ph products improving the cleaning, but it will aid in reducing all that residual alkalinity. The result will be a car that shines and dries better
BTW, my experience is just in my little corner of the world. There may be some lucky areas of the country that don't need all that alkalinity . But here, road film just laughs at most presoaks.
I if understand correctly Blendco gets all or a significant portion of alkalinity from their powder. The powder is likely a mixture of common alkaline builders, sodium or potassium hydroxide and/or sodium metasillicate. I don't know which and in what percentages. Most other one-drum presoaks have all products in the same container, including the alkaline. When you mix all these products into a drum with each other, you can only mix them so strong before they become unstable. You have to add expensive couplers or dilute with water until the solution is stable. So, Blendco can make their liquid very concentrated because they don't have to worry about the products interfering with each other prior to being diluted with water. I found Blendco to be a pretty effective product, but I also found it the level of effectiveness was directly related to the level of alkalinity in their product. When I reduced alkalinity of Blendco down to other one-drum presoaks, the magic went away. Consequently, when I raised the level of alkalinity of other products by "boosting" them with NaOH or KOH their cleaning ability increased enormously. Caustic is very cheap too. Now, there is concern that there are not appropriate buffers in the mixture, but I've found a level of alkalinity that is generally safe in my area and cleans very well. Qual-chem is chemical line based on this principle. You buy one base cleaner, Q clean, which I assume is close to neutral, then you add the acid or alkaline builder to it based on what you want to do with it.There are some other mfgs that have implemented "bosters" in their line. Ecolab sells 380, which is for the most part sodium hydroxide and (I've been told) some chelating agents. Warsaw sells "Hotshot" etc. Quest is line I've recently played with that I'm quite pleased with, also. Without exception, each presoak I've tried has to be boosted to that magic level of alkalinity for it to work as well as the standard. Having said all that, i realize that I'm just "burning" the dirt and film off. There are some hazards associated with that. But once you start down the road of high alkalinity, you paint yourself in a corner. Your customers expect a certain level of cleanliness that can only be provided by this high alkalinity. I'm looking for the magic product that doesn't have to be boosted to work as well as previous solutions, I've yet to find it. When a mfg stumbles on that they'll make a killing.
I still consider Blendco a good product and good concept and would recommend that line to other operators, especially those that don't want to tweak their own solutions. But the same concept can be done much cheaper by active operators that like to play with their wash chemistry.
But back to the original post. I've not had much luck with non-HF lo ph products improving the cleaning, but it will aid in reducing all that residual alkalinity. The result will be a car that shines and dries better
BTW, my experience is just in my little corner of the world. There may be some lucky areas of the country that don't need all that alkalinity . But here, road film just laughs at most presoaks.
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Waxman
Super Moderator
If the booster can be added or 'pulled' into the injector in liquid form along with the base of the soap, also in liquid form, wouldn't that work?
How come the mfg.'s can't sell us ultra concentrates that can be mixed with water as they are pumped onto the car???
Then they wouldn't have to ship us all that darn water!
How come the mfg.'s can't sell us ultra concentrates that can be mixed with water as they are pumped onto the car???
Then they wouldn't have to ship us all that darn water!
The problem with ultra concentrates is that many injection systems can't dispense them in the small amount needed and operators don't like what appears to be the high cost of the product. In most cases the use cost is less and it requires fewer changeovers to a new container. In some cases the container can be almost twice the cost of the concentrate.
A good chemical distributor should be able to make the necessary changes in the injection system for little or no cost. On the other hand, some distributors do not carry ultras and will continue to sell you on cost per container and maybe sell a boost. Many times adding a boost also increases cost quite a bit. The bottom line for an operator is to know their use cost and balance that with the quality of performance regardless of which way they choose go.
A good chemical distributor should be able to make the necessary changes in the injection system for little or no cost. On the other hand, some distributors do not carry ultras and will continue to sell you on cost per container and maybe sell a boost. Many times adding a boost also increases cost quite a bit. The bottom line for an operator is to know their use cost and balance that with the quality of performance regardless of which way they choose go.
TheChemicalGuy1
Member
To do that is impossible, and I'll tell you why. In your presoak your going to have about 80% Alkalinity and 20% Surfactant (the foaming,color,lubrication). To have these two the optimal level to be used a detergent, and put them into the same container at those levels, they would just coagulate. Therefore, most companies add couplers and tons of water, and ship the diluted solution to you. If you get an ultra concentrate from turtle wax or something close to that, your going to end up getting 80% surfactant and 20% Alkalinity. I've found one of the most cost effective ways to make detergents is with a two step system.
The product would not coagulate. It simply would not blend together and couldn't be injected properly. Some time ago a chemist reminded me that water is an ingredient, often an important one. Even the Blendco system you refer to requires water in the surfactant product that is injected with the alkaline blend. The powder (alkalinity) element is limited by the necessity to mix it in water before injection in a limited amount to prevent super saturation which would cause a powder build up in the bottom of the mixing tank.
The closest thing to what Waxman is referring to was Blue Coral's Smart Soap system which in effect had the operators manufacturing the product in the backroom just before injection. The problem with that system was the difficulty of setting it up and keeping mixing in the right proportions. Even some of their reps had a problem keeping it in proper working order.
The closest thing to what Waxman is referring to was Blue Coral's Smart Soap system which in effect had the operators manufacturing the product in the backroom just before injection. The problem with that system was the difficulty of setting it up and keeping mixing in the right proportions. Even some of their reps had a problem keeping it in proper working order.
Waxman
Super Moderator
Thanks. This discussion is helping me to understand this chemistry a little more.
JIMT
Member
Chemical Guy,
How do you make the 2 step system you mentioned?
JimT
How do you make the 2 step system you mentioned?
JimT
TheChemicalGuy1
Member
Here's what it boils down to:
55 gal mixing tank (4 patents), keeps the tank at a steady 450-500 drops alkalinity (point of saturation). There's a turbitometer which is essentially two LED eyes, one transmits, one receives. As the solution is used up, the eyes can begin to read each other, once this happens, the motor kicks on and disturbs the powder bed at the bottom, bringing it back up to saturation, this continues on and on...
Next, each one of your surfactants are actually 100% active ingredients, no water, since all high quality ingredients are oil derivatives.
A line of alkalinty runs from your mixing tank to your metering device, wether it is a hydrominder, dosatron, dema , direct inject etc. For easier understanding, lets use an eductor from a hydrominder set up. Remove the the original eductor, replace with a dual eductor, one tipped for your alkalinity and one tipped for your surfactant. These unique set up gives you the ability to change your cleaning power and not mess with your foaming, color, fragrance and vise versa.
If you're more interested and want some visuals, I can send you some pics from some of my washes.
G' Day
100% active? Better check your product manual. Where is the Low ph application? Costs?
There are several good dual injection systems out there. I like the versatility of systems like these but one has to be very careful with use costs. If you or the rep gets carried away with dilution ratios it can really increase costs without adding to the performance. If you have or are thinking about getting one of these systems be sure to learn how to do the volumetrics on them. It is a little trickier than with standard systems but once you learn it you can double check costs fairly easily. Most are not set it and forget it systems. They need to be monitored more than the others.
JIMT
Member
Chemical guy,
Thanks for the very good description. That sounds neat.
JimT
Thanks for the very good description. That sounds neat.
JimT
TheChemicalGuy1
Member
Our low pH application used for presoak or cta is $116 for a 6 gal pail. Typical use is between 10ml-20ml depending on the strength you want. This product is an acid so does not use the alkaline powder. So 1gal=3786mL / 6gal=22710mL Therefore costing $.005 per ml. Depending on usage your looking at $.05 - $.10 per wash. Running at 10mL's is getting out about 10-12 drops which is sufficient for great cleaning/enhanced drying.
All systems have to be monitored, but really only when first installing a new chem, season change, etc... BlendCo's mixing tank has 4 patents on it, designed to be a set and forget for the operator. There's a blue line on the outside of the tank showing the level where to add another pail or two of alkaline powder, and a blue line showing where not to fill up. If you understand tips and dilution ratios you can understand/use BlendCo easily. All recommend usages are on a yellow label on the outside.
A few conveniences when using BlendCo: Not having to deal with 30gal or 55 gal drums to lug around, deal with if the distributor didn't pick them up or take them back; being able to have ultimate control over the cleaning power in your tunnel, IBA, or SS. (Side note, we do sell some chemicals in 30gal for high volume washes, chemicals such as mitter lube, drying agent...Still all active ingredients, no water/couplers & binders)
And if you have a good rep, he will know a thing or two about the industry, equipment, all support equipment, how to at least perform and schedule PM on equip. Know what to look/hear for when in the wash/equipment room, etc....
I think you are mistaken about those products not containing water. It is impossible to make a product that does not contain some couplers and water. I would suggest you check with Blendco to get better information. If you told someone that who knows anything about chemistry you would really damage your credibility with a statement like that. I am familiar with Blendco low pH products and I have never seen them work at 1/3 to 2/3rds of an ounce. Usually at least 1 ounce and sometimes around 2 ounces per vehicle or better depending on the equipment. That is still pretty good but not at the use cost you suggest.
As I said before, Blendco is a good system. There are several good product lines out there with many excellent products. Actually a good chemical rep can make almost anyone's products work. The problem is how much might be needed to achieve quality results.
I would also question the "set it and forget" it approach. The more parts a system requires the more chance of having problems and like any of the others Blendco's is no exception. That is why I would recommend that any operator using or thinking of using it to learn how to titrate and do volumetrics on the products.
I a not trying to rain on your parade. You seem sincere and loyal to the Blendco line which you sell. What I am trying to do is making sure that correct information is being given here and offering you a little constructive criticism on your approach. Hopefully you will take it in that spirit. I have trained many chemical reps and given numerous seminars on car wash chemistry. One of the bigger mistakes they made was to underestimate their competitors products and overstate some of the information they gave about ours. I admire your spirit and think you will do well as long as you get the facts straight.
As I said before, Blendco is a good system. There are several good product lines out there with many excellent products. Actually a good chemical rep can make almost anyone's products work. The problem is how much might be needed to achieve quality results.
I would also question the "set it and forget" it approach. The more parts a system requires the more chance of having problems and like any of the others Blendco's is no exception. That is why I would recommend that any operator using or thinking of using it to learn how to titrate and do volumetrics on the products.
I a not trying to rain on your parade. You seem sincere and loyal to the Blendco line which you sell. What I am trying to do is making sure that correct information is being given here and offering you a little constructive criticism on your approach. Hopefully you will take it in that spirit. I have trained many chemical reps and given numerous seminars on car wash chemistry. One of the bigger mistakes they made was to underestimate their competitors products and overstate some of the information they gave about ours. I admire your spirit and think you will do well as long as you get the facts straight.
TheChemicalGuy1
Member
I do take it the right way and do appreciate your insight on what I have to say. As far as Low pH usage goes, B-Brite/Lighting Brite are recommened at 22-59mL a car, so you're right, usage can be up to 2 oz a car. There's just too many factors determine how much chemical its going to take to get your desired result. Even with those usages your looking at $.11- .30 a wash, not bad when comparing with industry averages: $.15-.26 (Presoak-Friction) $.50-.70 (Presoak- Touchless) Just saying....
