How do MacNeil Super Flex Wraps handel rear bike racks, custum pickup cages?

[Hoser06]

Hi guys
Planning a smaller 75" tunnel with mostly MacNeil equipment and a flat belt conveyor.
Thinking of going unattended/self load, during off peak times and wondering how the 701 Super Flex wraps fair with vehicle obstructions like rear bike racks, wipers on during wash, pickup cages and the like.
I remember reading past posts from JimmyJaffa that they run without a retract button with his MacNeil tunnels.

Thanks

 

[hkim310]

I always wondered about that for self loading / unattended tunnels. How does the tunnel controller know to initiate the wrap retract function to not damage bike racks on the back of vehicles?

 

[robert roman]

Industry best practice for staffing an exterior express conveyor is two persons per shift, two seven-hour shifts. One person would be sufficient for “low” hourly volumes.

I would not skimp on labor (unattended/self load, during off peak times) because customer service is perceived by the consumer as both a value and a principal characteristic of image.

In fact, poor or no customer service may create an adverse image deterring customers even if the site is more convenient than the competition.

Unattended means no one to be polite or most helpful or promote the wash.

On the other hand, if scaling back on labor is necessary to obtain normal profit, then maybe the site isn’t really suitable for a 70’ tunnel.

 

[rph9168]

Robert is right on. To not staff an express exterior is playing with fire. The more successful and busy express exteriors in my area always have at least two or more employees at all times. One is always guiding on, taping back window wipers, prespraying for bugs or excess soils and in some cases removing antennas. I would guess that the problems avoided by having an attendant at the entrance of the wash is worth more than paying an employee.

 

[Hoser06]

Points taken on the benefits to staff especially with customer service and experience.
When I said unattended, i wasn't clear. I meant for loading & guiding cars onto the conveyor.
I'd still have staff inside to man a cashier lane inline with the two PlayStation lanes. They'd be occupied with fleet admin or wash club sign-up so cars will slip by with questionable accessories, rear bike racks ect. I was wondering how forgiving specifically MacNeil wraps were when they encounter vehicle profile extending objects. Most MacNeil washes I've observed don't tape wipers or remove antennas and with pickup bed detecting top brush, they stay clear of open beds.

With belt conveyors, voice prompt led loading signage and prep-less equipment, I see the opportunity for a more relaxed, consistent loading experience without the inconsistencys staff introduce.
"Your guy forgot to brush my rear window" or "that guy looks bored"
Have you driven into a modern super wide dual belt conveyor? It's insanely easy.

Take Tommy washes as an example of self loading. Some of the larger wave sites do insane numbers and most all have unassisted loading.
How do they do it? And with AVW miters too.
Thanks for the ideas guys

 

[BBE]

Yes, tommy's does do mostly unattended loading, and yes it is much easier to do with a belt conveyor. BUT...have you really fully researched and made sure you want to do a belt conveyor? Also, even though tommy's is somewhat self loading, there are still persons there at all times to grab hitches off vehicles, I've seen them actually climb up into the bed of peoples trucks and remove stuff as they are going through the tunnel.

 

[rph9168]

An unattended entrance to any tunnel is asking for problems. If an operator wants to try to save labor this is not the place to do it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have a cashier / Loader. Typicaly they are focused on the car entering and not on the back of the vehicle that has been loaded and is now passing them. Bike racks and wraps can make for a bad mix. The signs clearly say "Customer is responsible for damage to or caused by Non Factory original equipment" .

 

[robert roman]

“Take Tommy washes as an example of self loading….How do they do it?”

Watch their video on YouTube and you will learn how.

It’s also expensive because it’s a system (attended control room with video monitors) and it’s just not the belt that gets you there.

I would never send a vehicle equipped with roof or bike rack through a wash without retracting brushes.

I don’t care how many “we are not responsible for anything” signs are posted. If equipment (i.e. brushes) touches the rack and damage it, the operator would be liable because he/she did not provide due care.

Roll-over and conveyor carwash systems are designed to clean horizontal and vertical surfaces, not absurd appendages.

For example, if Ram truck antennas are known to be prone to snapping off when going through wrap-around brushes, is not removing them beforehand due care?

Sure, I could say take it off yourself customer or I’m not liable. However, who wants to go through life winning little battles but losing the war.

Generating hundreds of cars an hour unattended plays well to absentee owners who don’t need bank loans.

However, at 180 cars an hour, things happen pretty fast and general public is behind the wheel.

I’d install a belt because I like them. However, I can’t trust enough to suggest operating a conveyor carwash system without attendant.

 

[Earl Weiss]

“

I don’t care how many “we are not responsible for anything” signs are posted. If equipment (i.e. brushes) touches the rack and damage it, the operator would be liable because he/she did not provide due care.

Tell whomever you paid for your legal education that you want your money back because they taught you wrong.

It is the customer who failed the due care / negligence test. Just as if they failed any other instruction or common sense standard.

 

[robert roman]

Customer comes in with an old Ford Bronco equipped with a non-factory plastic bug shield mounted on the hood lip and it blows apart going through the air producers.

However, there is a sign posted; "Customer is responsible for damage to or caused by Non Factory original equipment".

So, yes, the business owner would be out of the woods so to speak.

However, if customer is random, never been to the wash before, doesn’t operator have responsibility as professional car washer to tell customer it would not be advisable to subject years old brittle plastic to 75-hp or more of air producers.

After all, customer has come to business owner to solve their problem but is not familiar with the operation.

If customer says run it through anyway, then get them to sign consent form and have at it.
I don’t have time for this BS is not a valid excuse.

If the carwash operation can’t handle vehicles equipped with non-factory equipment, then why wash them at all.

For example, they could be directed to a touchless or hand carwash.

This why having sharp conveyor attendants is invaluable. Absent greeter, they are first point of contact with customer.

If attendants don’t inspect every vehicle, don’t understand products and services or how the carwash works, what to do in emergency, etc., the operator is at big disadvantage.

 

[Earl Weiss]

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However, if customer is random, never been to the wash before, doesn’t operator have responsibility as professional car washer to tell customer it would not be advisable to subject years old brittle plastic to 75-hp or more of air producers.

After all, customer has come to business owner to solve their problem but is not familiar with the operation.

If customer says run it through anyway, then get them to sign consent form and have at it.
I don’t have time for this BS is not a valid excuse.

If the carwash operation can’t handle vehicles equipped with non-factory equipment, then why wash them at all.

For example, they could be directed to a touchless or hand carwash.

This why having sharp conveyor attendants is invaluable. Absent greeter, they are first point of contact with customer.

If attendants don’t inspect every vehicle, don’t understand products and services or how the carwash works, what to do in emergency, etc., the operator is at big disadvantage.

1. Customer is advised. That is what the sign does.
2. If any customer is not familiar with any operation of any business it is not responsible for them to try to use the service without some attempt at learning how it works. They are negligent.
3. It is not that the wash can't handle all non factory equipment. You over generalize. Due to the virtualy limitless makes, models, and years of vehicles and all manner of stuff that can be taped on, glued on, velcroed on protrude in all sorts of fashion it is impossible to tell what may or may not work. So, the huge percentage have no issues. The small percentage need to be aware of what their modifications can do.
4. Your view of the attendant and his role at an EE is unrealistic. You suggest that an efficient operation can put thru 120 CPH with one attendant walking completely around every car and examining from the ground up if each item is original plus other issues, and has the knowledge and observational abilities to do this. Really?

One example. Called to the front to see a customer that has a problem. He is holding up a broken hubcap. It's plastic and I see he has a 15 year old Cadillac. I say "Sir, that is not an original Cadillac hubcap, and we are not responsible for non original equipment. " He says : "It's originally from Walmart". Since he gave me a good chuckle I gave him a couple free washes and he was happy.

 

[JimmyJaffa]

Yes we do not have a wrap retract, because we do not allow bike racks on the backs of vehicles (on top as well), tailgates of pickups tailgates have to be closed (no pickup bed extenders), pickup beds are measured with sonar. We check the backs of vehicles with a mirror (also if brakes are on). Wrap retracts have to be engaged in the first 2 feet of travel or the computer will not recognize it, then it is our responsibility not the customers if the guide-on employee forgets (we have warnings about no bike racks). I am sure there are other equally as good methods, but these seem to have worked well for us.

 

[robert roman]

The standard operating procedure described by Jimmy Jaffa is similar to how I was taught to do it and what I suggest my clients adopt.

“You suggest that an efficient operation can put thru 120 CPH with one attendant walking completely around every car and examining from the ground up if each item is original plus other issues, and has the knowledge and observational abilities to do this. Really?”

Incorrect, I mentioned two persons, two seven hour shifts and one person at low volume.

Besides the obvious, examining for loose moldings, mirrors, etc., existing damage takes less than 30 seconds.

If you hire for attitude and train for aptitude, you can get people to perform this function at a high level.

At the conveyors I was involved with (pre-self pay station), quality assurance at starting line was principally the responsibility of CSA.

We had CSA’s inspect vehicle before advising/selling customer because it helps establish a level of trust.

Why are you looking over my car? Because we want to ensure you have a safe and enjoyable experience.

I believe customers appreciate this more than some disclaimer sign that implies enter at your own risk.

As far as the guy with a 15-year Caddy with hubcaps from Walmart, that sort of speaks for itself.

 

[Earl Weiss]

“You suggest that an efficient operation can put thru 120 CPH with one attendant walking completely around every car and examining from the ground up if each item is original plus other issues, and has the knowledge and observational abilities to do this. Really?”

Incorrect, I mentioned two persons, two seven hour shifts and one person at low volume.

.

Therein lies the rub. At high volume, one person acts as a loader and the other needs to keep up with managing flow, emptying trash, servicing vacuums, cleaning the place. Making necessary adjustments etc. They can't be tied to the entrance.

 

[JimmyJaffa]

Earl is right, one employee is guide on, second does many things, and we have more than enough cameras to inspect each car thoroughly that is wash.

 

[robert roman]

The rub is trying to operate a carwash with such a minimal amount of labor that it compromises safety.

Like I don’t want to bother inspecting cars or pay people to do it, so post a big disclaimer sign on the wall and then throw hands up in the air when something goes wrong.

Proof is in the pudding.

Walk through a tunnel that doesn’t follow best practices like the ones I mentioned and you will find it littered with garbage and broken pieces (license plates, antenna, moldings, wipers, etc.).

Exterior washes 100,000 CPY, average sale $10 or $1.0 million gross.

Five full-time (one is for PT coverage) plus on-site manager fully burden is about $175,000 or 17.5 percent of sales.

Add another FTE, makes it about 20 percent.

So, five plus one plus manager is roughly 14,500 hours or 6.9 cars per man-hour.

So, dump manager, call one of the attendants assistant, then run wash with minimal crew equal 10.0 cars per man-hour.

So, productivity increases but there are 4,500 hours less time to deliver customer service (i.e. inspecting each vehicles, etc.).

Clearly, one full-time equivalent isn’t going to make a material difference in the bottom line of a profitable carwash.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Robert, the rub are the factors in your theory.
1. The issue is not whether one can afford extra labor. The issue is whether it is really necessary to have 2 extra employees, one per shift to stand on the passenger side of the car to address the few, perhaps 1/10 of 1% or 100 out of 100,000 who have non factory or prior damage that cause issues, or whether the average person / customer should be aware that they accept responsibility for those items.
2. We have been thru this before vis a vis your revenue per car example. For a $3.00 base, the average extra sales at an EE are not $7.00. Maybe $4.00 if you are lucky. If you are in part of the country that supports a higher base even factoring monthly washes, then it is likely your costs are higher as well. So you are lucky if your revenue is $700K, not $1 Million. Less $1.00 to put a car thru the Tunnel leaves $600K.
3. You factor $12.50 an hour which is low, especially factoring Employer contributions. More like $15.00 / hr or more. So, the equation is simple 2 employees x 2000 hours x $15 = $60,000 off the bottom line which you claim is insignificant. Unnecessary yes, insignificant - No.
4. Next time you are in Chicago, lunch is one and we can visit 1 or 2 dozen $3.00 all built within the last 5 years. How many have 2 people at the entrance? I bet none. If it's really busy and they have a floater, that person is at the pay stations and elsewhere managing traffic flow.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have to correct something. The number I used above was a way out example. I get perhaps an average of 2 incident reports a month. Of course more in the crazy buys winter when the people who wash there car once or twice a year have an issue. of that 25 perhaps 4 or 5 are the non original issue or prior damage type. The rest are people who notice some mark and think the wash did it. Often so slight you have to look in the right light, at the right angle from about 8 inches away. Some are wiper or mirror issues, and some of the wipers the people turned them on in the wash.

So, with a liberal estimate of 10 issues a year from non original or prior damage issue the concept and cost of an extra employee to make sure each car is inspected makes no sense.

 

[robert roman]

I have no bullet proof vest, so I’ll pass on Chicago till current events get better up there.

My discussion assumes markets where washes have normal and above normal profits.

Washes in markets where $3.00 base price, low average sales predominates typically have below normal profits. Who wants a wash like that?

For example, I’m use to seeing unit variable cost of between $2.00 and $2.50 not one dollar, average sales $10 or more.

Surprisingly, operators contact me occasionally wanting to know how to exploit washes that compete on basis of low price.

When the supply side prices like a commodity (i.e. gasoline), retailers tend to market stuff that has a robust margin.

Otherwise, there would not be sufficient gross sales to provide adequate management and staff to ensure customer-centric operation without cutting corners like the example $3.00 carwash.

The more successful c-store/gas chains today are those with highest numbers of associates per shift.

I’ve seen my share of $3.00 washes with low averages and most aren’t friendly. It’s all about getting them through the tunnel. Most don’t even try to sell you anything.

Of course, if $3.00 is all I could get for a carwash, I guess I might not be very friendly either.

On other hand, most of the operators I know that average $10 or more seem pretty happy.