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How much preping is needed
- Thread starter Eric H
- Start date
rph9168
Carwashguy
Jon, not sure I agree on the commodity comparison. I think the issue has as much or more to do with value as it does price and the economy. Do customers feel they are getting their "bang for their buck"?
To be sure weather in most parts of the country has not been on our side. I still feel that people look at value when choosing a wash even in good economic times. If a self service location is well maintained and puts out visibly better show at the wand and the foam brush they will be successful. If one IBA location does a better job than another in the area and costs a little more they can be profitable. Most customers can distinguish the difference between and three dollar express wash and a twelve dollar+ full/flex wash. Both operations will attract those customers that favor one over the other format.
I remember one time when I was with an operator when a customer came up to him and told him that the wash down the road was cheaper than his. Without hesitation the operator said. "that is because his wash isn't worth what ours is." At least for this customer that seemed to satisfy him.
While there are some "price sensitive" customers and the economy is certainly not helping any the value paradigm cannot be overlooked.
To be sure weather in most parts of the country has not been on our side. I still feel that people look at value when choosing a wash even in good economic times. If a self service location is well maintained and puts out visibly better show at the wand and the foam brush they will be successful. If one IBA location does a better job than another in the area and costs a little more they can be profitable. Most customers can distinguish the difference between and three dollar express wash and a twelve dollar+ full/flex wash. Both operations will attract those customers that favor one over the other format.
I remember one time when I was with an operator when a customer came up to him and told him that the wash down the road was cheaper than his. Without hesitation the operator said. "that is because his wash isn't worth what ours is." At least for this customer that seemed to satisfy him.
While there are some "price sensitive" customers and the economy is certainly not helping any the value paradigm cannot be overlooked.
Limited Thinking Results In Limited Solutions
Of course a prep-free tunnel can be designed and installed with today's technology. The problem with the nay-sayers is their limited thinking confined within a familiar frame of reference.
The average tunnel ranges between 90-130 feet of conveyor. Look at the average equipment package included inside the tunnels and you will likely see stuff jammed up with very tight tolerances, little drip-space and little real dwell-time. Yet, since the equipment supplier said the system can do 100-120 cars-per-hour, the operator runs the conveyor far too fast to achieve the desired result. Although the operator is using plenty of "soap", the cascade-effect of too little dwell-time further compressed with a too-fast conveyor... and cars are not as clean as they should be and wetter than they need to be upon exiting, due to the too short drip-space. The bottom-line: Far too many carwashes run their systems too fast to reach optimum efficacy. If I see a carwash with a line of cars waiting to be processed, and gaps in their ideal conveyor spacing, it is a clear indication that management is inattentive.
Another area for scrutiny: Having 20-feet of conveyor loading inside the building... instead of outside the building. Too many operators have the conveyor start right inside the door, wasting 20+ feet of building for parking while loading... that should be devoted to cleaning & drying.
Instead, I frequently suggest a 40-20-40 floor plan that segregates 40% dwell & washing space from 20% rinse & sealing space, and 40% drip-space & drying. Then, set the conveyor speed at an optimum to complete the process acceptably. Cleaning chemicals, rinsing agents, premium sealer products are job-balanced to render a clean, dry shiny car within the optimum performance speed. The benchmark is an acceptably clean & dry vehicle. Throttling the conveyor speed often results in a foolish compromise.
Of course a prep-free tunnel can be designed and installed with today's technology. The problem with the nay-sayers is their limited thinking confined within a familiar frame of reference.
The average tunnel ranges between 90-130 feet of conveyor. Look at the average equipment package included inside the tunnels and you will likely see stuff jammed up with very tight tolerances, little drip-space and little real dwell-time. Yet, since the equipment supplier said the system can do 100-120 cars-per-hour, the operator runs the conveyor far too fast to achieve the desired result. Although the operator is using plenty of "soap", the cascade-effect of too little dwell-time further compressed with a too-fast conveyor... and cars are not as clean as they should be and wetter than they need to be upon exiting, due to the too short drip-space. The bottom-line: Far too many carwashes run their systems too fast to reach optimum efficacy. If I see a carwash with a line of cars waiting to be processed, and gaps in their ideal conveyor spacing, it is a clear indication that management is inattentive.
Another area for scrutiny: Having 20-feet of conveyor loading inside the building... instead of outside the building. Too many operators have the conveyor start right inside the door, wasting 20+ feet of building for parking while loading... that should be devoted to cleaning & drying.
Instead, I frequently suggest a 40-20-40 floor plan that segregates 40% dwell & washing space from 20% rinse & sealing space, and 40% drip-space & drying. Then, set the conveyor speed at an optimum to complete the process acceptably. Cleaning chemicals, rinsing agents, premium sealer products are job-balanced to render a clean, dry shiny car within the optimum performance speed. The benchmark is an acceptably clean & dry vehicle. Throttling the conveyor speed often results in a foolish compromise.
Last edited:
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Well, he is not mythical in that he exists. LAst I heard he had a piece of the Car Wash Express chain in Co. You might try to contact him.
Still have apair of his wraps, built like tanks, 30+ years old. He also did an HP arch named the Hodge arch, in use in many places and a wildly successful for it's day whitewall lceaning nmachine that spun the tires.
anyway even the CW Express chsin which uses his equip. has some guys with a pre soak and HP gun available for manual prepping.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
The parameters for the question . Does a tunnel need to prep?
As with many things the question needs to be defined before you can really have an intelligent discussion. The parameters would be as follows yet each of those need to be defined as well:
How clean is clean enough?
How dry is dry enough?
How much are you willing to spend on equipment purchase and install?
How much are you willing to spend per car on solutions and utiities?
Now, a simple answer is will the customer believe the service recieved is above or beyond the price paid? That is clean enough and dry enough, and it has to be provided at a price where your cost sustainsthe business model.
As with many things the question needs to be defined before you can really have an intelligent discussion. The parameters would be as follows yet each of those need to be defined as well:
How clean is clean enough?
How dry is dry enough?
How much are you willing to spend on equipment purchase and install?
How much are you willing to spend per car on solutions and utiities?
Now, a simple answer is will the customer believe the service recieved is above or beyond the price paid? That is clean enough and dry enough, and it has to be provided at a price where your cost sustainsthe business model.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
FWIW we do not prep.
We are fortunate to have longer tunnels where just about every surface has double to quadruple or even quintuple coverage.
As Bill points out, there still can be a missed area like the windshield between the bottom edge of wipers and the hood, or on SUVs between the outside mount spare tire and hatch / window.
We do not hand dry and it seems whether we have 7 impellers or 17 there me be a drop or drip left behind.
we also have extra manifolds at the entrance with HP and Hot water the entry man can trigger for problem cars. BUT if the guy has 6 inches of snow on the car and it's 15 degrees ot it will not all come off.
manual prep by some is done because the customer expects it. We took over a place andlost some custmers when wwe eliminated it. But gained many more because we could reduse the price, but we also upgraded the equip.
We are fortunate to have longer tunnels where just about every surface has double to quadruple or even quintuple coverage.
As Bill points out, there still can be a missed area like the windshield between the bottom edge of wipers and the hood, or on SUVs between the outside mount spare tire and hatch / window.
We do not hand dry and it seems whether we have 7 impellers or 17 there me be a drop or drip left behind.
we also have extra manifolds at the entrance with HP and Hot water the entry man can trigger for problem cars. BUT if the guy has 6 inches of snow on the car and it's 15 degrees ot it will not all come off.
manual prep by some is done because the customer expects it. We took over a place andlost some custmers when wwe eliminated it. But gained many more because we could reduse the price, but we also upgraded the equip.
Eric H
Well-known member
Actually the question was: Does a tunnel with f2b mitter, rocker brush, side wraps, s2s mitter need to wash the entire vehicle before processing?
It is the middle part of the question that seems to have been missed by Mr. Okum. None the less, the thread seems to have spurred some healthy discussion and answered my origional question sufficently.
Washmee
Fullservice Tunnel
Depends on the conditions at the time. If its the middle of July, on a regularly washed vehicle, probably no prep is needed. If its the week before Christmas and the vehicle hasn't been washed since last Christmas, it might need prepped. If its the middle of February and the vehicle is covered with snow and ice, it definately needs prepped. There is no "one size fits all" in the carwash business.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
Well, I know, but the question can apply to any title dependiong on desired output speed and layout. One of the well know mfgrs specs out different systems depending on production speed.
FWIW I think double coverage is a minimum particularly for the fronts and backs.
Earl Weiss
Well-known member
As a side note. At an industry convention just outside Chicago there was a session (I think RPH was there) and the issue was raised that there are certain conditions where certain vehicles may not get clean going thru the tunnel once without prepping and even prepping would have to be extensive or have considerable dwell time.
For me the condition is hot summer stretches where bird poop and tree sap is cooked on for a week. Luckily, faster production is needed in winter where the salt is easy to remove and helps clean the car so we can run slower to address these issues in summer.
I commented that I felt it heartwarming to know I was not the only one with these issues because to listen to some might have you believe that you will never have any problem with the right equip and solutions.
For this low % the stuff is soft and soaked after one wash and the second wash typicaly does the trick.
Also if it's very cold say 10 degrees and the car hasn't warmed up water will flash freeze or dirt is frozen hard. (Even extra hot water and HP won't help on the first pass. A second pass will typicaly do it. Did have one guy this winter who I told to go thru again and then he decided to make a cell phone call. Told him if he spent 10 minutes outside it would happen again,. He went thru again and problem was solved..
For me the condition is hot summer stretches where bird poop and tree sap is cooked on for a week. Luckily, faster production is needed in winter where the salt is easy to remove and helps clean the car so we can run slower to address these issues in summer.
I commented that I felt it heartwarming to know I was not the only one with these issues because to listen to some might have you believe that you will never have any problem with the right equip and solutions.
For this low % the stuff is soft and soaked after one wash and the second wash typicaly does the trick.
Also if it's very cold say 10 degrees and the car hasn't warmed up water will flash freeze or dirt is frozen hard. (Even extra hot water and HP won't help on the first pass. A second pass will typicaly do it. Did have one guy this winter who I told to go thru again and then he decided to make a cell phone call. Told him if he spent 10 minutes outside it would happen again,. He went thru again and problem was solved..
BayWatch
Jedi apprentice
To answer the original question and then add my two cents;
A tunnel with that equipment should not have to prep that much of the vehicle in order to get it CLEAN.
However, our exterior tunnels were built and designed on multiple variables other than getting a clean car. We considered the product the competition delivered as well as other factors. We specifically took women, childern and elderly people into consideration. We concluded that enclosed spaces and loud noises turn this group off to the competition and we designed a building and equipment package that was more appealing. Also, in West Texas, most customers prefer the human touch. Seeing people at both ends of our tunnels is reassuring.
We dont have a lot of HP rinse, no flex-wraps, no top brush, or autotellers. We have people at the front to HELP clean the vehicle and people at the back to HELP dry the vehicle. We are not a typical express exterior. We are what we wanted to be, which was what our customers wanted. Maybe that is what the original post was pointing to.
A tunnel with that equipment should not have to prep that much of the vehicle in order to get it CLEAN.
However, our exterior tunnels were built and designed on multiple variables other than getting a clean car. We considered the product the competition delivered as well as other factors. We specifically took women, childern and elderly people into consideration. We concluded that enclosed spaces and loud noises turn this group off to the competition and we designed a building and equipment package that was more appealing. Also, in West Texas, most customers prefer the human touch. Seeing people at both ends of our tunnels is reassuring.
We dont have a lot of HP rinse, no flex-wraps, no top brush, or autotellers. We have people at the front to HELP clean the vehicle and people at the back to HELP dry the vehicle. We are not a typical express exterior. We are what we wanted to be, which was what our customers wanted. Maybe that is what the original post was pointing to.
Hello baywatch. Thanks for summing up the discussion in a short and reasonable way. I was trying to come up with pretty much the same sentiment, but you did it splendidly. It was the point that I was trying to make when comparing this to restaurants and the human involvement. Operating a wash your way makes sense for you and the market you are in. I think that it reflects poorly on our industry when someone with a condescending view implies that you are somehow doing us an injustice by operating a successful business. Don't have to mention any names.
chiefs as usual is right. if you want to get all vehicles clean, all the time manual prep and even a quick brush of front and back will improve cleaning.
you can build these 100-150' tunnels and pack them with equipment. two sets of the best wrap arounds still don't reach the lower/hidden front end on many vehicles that have a front bumper sticking out farther then the recessed headlights, etc.... on the rear an suv wiper interferes with wrap fingers getting to that surface where glass and paint meet and rounded bumpers and taillights on the rear end can't be reached by the great EE theory either
man, prep gun, and brush are the only answer 365 days a year. furthermore, when we hit send car button, car is moving, so prepping and lite brush as required do not slow down production. in an exterior the cashier can do all these tasks on moderate day, and add second guy on 200+ car day. in a full serve the vac/load send guy can do this task as well
and hah to not pre-treating on those hot summer days with baked on bugs, bird crap, etc... furthermore, with our customers washing less frequently man, prep and brush are even more important with dirt sitting longer.
wood
you can build these 100-150' tunnels and pack them with equipment. two sets of the best wrap arounds still don't reach the lower/hidden front end on many vehicles that have a front bumper sticking out farther then the recessed headlights, etc.... on the rear an suv wiper interferes with wrap fingers getting to that surface where glass and paint meet and rounded bumpers and taillights on the rear end can't be reached by the great EE theory either
man, prep gun, and brush are the only answer 365 days a year. furthermore, when we hit send car button, car is moving, so prepping and lite brush as required do not slow down production. in an exterior the cashier can do all these tasks on moderate day, and add second guy on 200+ car day. in a full serve the vac/load send guy can do this task as well
and hah to not pre-treating on those hot summer days with baked on bugs, bird crap, etc... furthermore, with our customers washing less frequently man, prep and brush are even more important with dirt sitting longer.
wood
Everyone wanting to produce a "clean car". Every operator has their definition of what a clean car is and then balances that against size of their building and how much they want to spend to achieve their version of an acceptably clean car. Regardless of the operator's definition of a clean car, the ultimate arbiters of what constitutes a clean car are our customers. They agree or do not with our definition of an acceptably clean car, by voting with their wallets.
I love the theorizing by the monday morning qaurterbacks claiming they can produce acceptably clean cars without prepping with "the right equipment and chemicals", yet fail to enlighten us with specifics.
Some miss the reason why we perform limited prepping (front, rear, and windshield) on every vehicle. We do it withoutcutting production because we have 23' from roller up to the first arch. More importantly, it is not because the customer expects it, it is because I demand it. I demand it in order to ensure that we give every customer the highest possible quality car wash regardless of whether they come once a week, once a month or once a year. I demand it to differentiate our car wash from those who produce cars the they deem to be acceptably clean which I believe is a euphamism for what do you want for $3 $4 or $5. That's fine they take the low road and wash 120-150,000 a year while I take the high raod and wash 80-90,000 a year.
Question If two tunnels are set up identically and one washes 150K a year at $5 per car and one washes $75K per year at $10 per car, what's the difference? Well, revenue is the same. But all their utility bills - water, sewer, gas, and electric as well as chemical bills are double. We instead spend some of that money on extra labor to prep. Now the big difference. The 150K wash produces "acceptably clean" cars while the 75K wash actually produces "really clean" cars. It all depends what you want the reputation of your car wash to be.
I love the theorizing by the monday morning qaurterbacks claiming they can produce acceptably clean cars without prepping with "the right equipment and chemicals", yet fail to enlighten us with specifics.
Some miss the reason why we perform limited prepping (front, rear, and windshield) on every vehicle. We do it withoutcutting production because we have 23' from roller up to the first arch. More importantly, it is not because the customer expects it, it is because I demand it. I demand it in order to ensure that we give every customer the highest possible quality car wash regardless of whether they come once a week, once a month or once a year. I demand it to differentiate our car wash from those who produce cars the they deem to be acceptably clean which I believe is a euphamism for what do you want for $3 $4 or $5. That's fine they take the low road and wash 120-150,000 a year while I take the high raod and wash 80-90,000 a year.
Question If two tunnels are set up identically and one washes 150K a year at $5 per car and one washes $75K per year at $10 per car, what's the difference? Well, revenue is the same. But all their utility bills - water, sewer, gas, and electric as well as chemical bills are double. We instead spend some of that money on extra labor to prep. Now the big difference. The 150K wash produces "acceptably clean" cars while the 75K wash actually produces "really clean" cars. It all depends what you want the reputation of your car wash to be.
