How to test concentration of soap, wax, foam brush etc....?

[Scottyk]

I recently purchased a small self serve, and Im slowly starting to understand how this thing operates mechanically. I am curious how do I know what ratio I am ACTUALLY running out of the gun? The soap I am using is warsaw chemical brand and they supply me with a range of ratios to run. But how do I test the ratios?

My pre-soak comes straight from the hydro-minder thru a procon pump then the solenoid to the gun. My high pressure soap uses the same hydrominder, but then gets introduced to the HP pump via the water inlet "gets sucked in thru a injector" which has a solenoid with flow control needle valve for adjustment. It uses soft heated water.

Wax is the same way as HP soap, hydro minder to the inlet side of HP pump via needle valve solenoid.

Foam brush is straight from the hydrominder, then to a manifold where air is mixed, then into a foam generator then to the brush.

I was thinking of putting in a another minder so I can use a pre-soak formula for pre-soak, and wash formula for HP soap. BUT I really do not know if this would really benefit me or the customer, I have tried running pre-soak chemical and wash soap chemical and I personally did not notice a difference in cleaning effectiveness. I am planning on re-plumbing the entire Equipment room this summer so it would not be a huge deal to make changes like this. I know I can go off the hydrominder chart for the chemicals that are fed directly from the hydrominder.

But I still do not know the correct way to test my concentrations coming out of the gun, particularly with HP soap and wax where the concentration is reliant on my solenoid needle valve adjustments.

Sorry for the long post, I hope it makes sense.

 

[loewem]

The only way that I know how to do this is to install flow meters between the soap and wax solenoids and the inlet side of the pump. 2BIZ explained this to me and he suggested flow meters from Kleen Rite https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-20520-dwyer-non-adjustable-flow-meter-8-40-gph.aspx. I bought two and installed them the other night, but haven't tried to calculate the final ratios yet. I think it would make sense to separate your soap and pre-soak. My setup is like yours and I use the same soap for pre-soak and soap, but mix them in separate tanks at different ratios. I'm curious to hear what the more experienced operators think about the soap/pre-soak. If you are going to make changes you might be interested in the following thread http://www.autocareforum.com/showth...tand&highlight=replumbing+mark+vii+pump+stand.

2BIZ posts a lot of pictures which is good for me......not the coldest beer in the fridge.

 

[Randy]

For years we used the same product for Foam Brush, High Pressure soap and Presoak until it got to expensive and our distributor stopped handling it. We did use a different Hydrominder and tank for each system. We don’ use flow meters on any of the systems, we look at how well it looks and preforms out in the bay and make fine tuning adjustments. Once they are set we very seldom ever have to make any more adjustments. As far as the concentrations out in the bay, as long as the product cleans, looks good, has a nice smell and the customer likes it all is good. Our chemical costs are almost nothing in relation to the other costs of running the car wash. I think every new car wash operator should go to the car wash convention and network with the professionals and learn as much as they can.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

I agree with Randy.
Your soap is your best and cheapest advertisement.
Don't skimp on it to make a few extra bucks at the end of the year.
I've never heard anyone complain about too much soap.
Customers love it.

 

[Scottyk]

I am looking forward to going to one of those conventions and seeing what is out there! My wash is very old school. I am good friends with another owner local to me who has been a huge huge help but between him and this forum thats where about all of my questions get answered. but my main reasoning is not to save money on chemicals but I want to make sure I am getting the best clean possible, I figured like anything, too much is not always better so too much soap might clean as well as the CORRECT amount of soap. A good example is foam brush, I had to richen up the mix for winter "with winter formula" to keep it from freezing. I went too far with it, caught it quickly, but it was SOOO red it was very hard to wash off the cars and I knew people would have hated that, it was about enough to stain things like customers clothes and skin "we all know how nasty that foam brush is"

I've been making changes to the mixture on the soap and foam brush just visually and I am confident it is very close to the recommended ratios now but Id still like to check.

The issue is with the wax, it doesnt have any foaming action, not much color specially on dark vehicles since its yellow in color. So its hard to see or tell if its too much, too little, or just right. I can tell the wax is working because of beading water, I can see the color if I put it into a clear jar. But thats about all I have to go off of. I can figure the ratio in my hydrominder but then it gets dilluted again going into the pump

 

[Scottyk]

The only way that I know how to do this is to install flow meters between the soap and wax solenoids and the inlet side of the pump. 2BIZ explained this to me and he suggested flow meters from Kleen Rite https://www.kleen-ritecorp.com/p-20520-dwyer-non-adjustable-flow-meter-8-40-gph.aspx. I bought two and installed them the other night, but haven't tried to calculate the final ratios yet. I think it would make sense to separate your soap and pre-soak. My setup is like yours and I use the same soap for pre-soak and soap, but mix them in separate tanks at different ratios. I'm curious to hear what the more experienced operators think about the soap/pre-soak. If you are going to make changes you might be interested in the following thread http://www.autocareforum.com/showth...tand&highlight=replumbing+mark+vii+pump+stand.

2BIZ posts a lot of pictures which is good for me......not the coldest beer in the fridge.

That thread is great! I wont even post pictures of what my ER looks like, specially the plumbing. I definitely inherited a mess where people have been patching it up with quick fixes for years. My wash is the oldest in town 50+ years. Its only 2 bays but the way the ER is arranged you would think its feeding a 10 bay self serve. I really want to add on to the pump stand myself and get some room back.

 

[BBE]

I agree with Randy.
Your soap is your best and cheapest advertisement.
Don't skimp on it to make a few extra bucks at the end of the year.
I've never heard anyone complain about too much soap.
Customers love it.

I actually had a lady a few months ago that swore up and down that the only reason that we run our soap so thick in the self serves is to force people to spend extra time and money to rinse it off

 

[2Biz]

Most operators don't use flow meters...I have 16 in all for my 4 bay...Here's why I like them. Once I get a service set the way I like it in a bay such as soap, all I have to do is set the rest of the bays to the same flow using the meters and needle valves. No guessing and running back and forth to the bays. Plus all bays are identical no mater how far the bay is from the ER...Flow is flow. It doesn't care about restrictions and hose length....Then once all the equipment is set up, I glance at the flows in the ER when somebody is using it to make sure flows haven't changed...The new flow meters I installed 4 years ago have always remained the same flow. I never have to adjust anything and its always the same. I like the visual assurance that everything is working by glancing at it in the ER. Saves me from going through each service in the bays weekly to make sure it all is working correctly. Or waiting on somebody to complain that something isn't working...

 

[Scottyk]

I called Warsaw directly. I will say they're very easy to talk to and genuinely want to help me out so that was very refreshing. but they do not have a solution that I am looking for, no way to actually measure for the correct dilution or ratio the way it is currently setup. The mechanical engineer in me just wants the numbers. BUT he did reassure me with the ratios I am running in the hydrominder that I will not be putting anywhere near a dangerous amount of chemical out of the gun that could cause harm to the cars or a person. He said the way I am adjusting the soap just visually is perfectly acceptable.

On the wax I was informed that you do NOT want too strong of a mixture because that will actually cause poor performance or waay too strong can start to stain. Basically just spray it into a cup or on a white car or windshield and make sure there is a hint of yellow. He also suggested simply backing the product ratio way down till you can tell its not working "not beading water, no color" then slowly add it back in.

 

[2Biz]

The reason they don't have a solution for you is because all their chemicals work somewhat differently depending on water quality. So how do you compensate for all the varying water quality out there or be able to supply a one size fits all approach? That's why they offer ranges to get you started. Like others have mentioned, you just have to see what works best for you.

I also use Warsaw. For instance, I use Black Cherry Formula 551 Soap. I run the recommended 90-1 tip in the hydrominder and run 10oz a minute or 38.4-1 into the pump...This equates to 3456-1 final ratio into the pump...BUT, I run ~0~ grain hardness water to get this ratio and get paint like soap in the bays. 5 grain hardness water completely kills soap at this ratio. Changing to 15oz a minute of the same 90-1 hydrominder diluted chemical into the pump changes final ratio to 2304-1....You'll use 1/3 more soap for the same amount of water.

Another comparison, I could change to a 45-1 hydrominder tip and change to 5 oz a minute into the pump and get the same 3456-1 final ratio....When water quality is so important and with varying equipment, you see how hard it can be for a chemical manufacture to help you set ratio's? Thats why I like using the flow-meters...Once I find the right ratio, I can make all bays identical. No customer complaints. All bays are the same. I would imagine this also saves on chemical usage...No guessing bay to bay....I guess that could be debatable from the more experienced operators!

BTW, running ~0~ grain water has a multitude of benefits! Lowest chemical usage (possible) is at the top of the list! BTW, I've never had a complaint in 6 years. Only positive comments how well the wash works compared to my competitors....

 

[2Biz]

BTW, you can put in a new SS tank and hydrominder for less than $200 so you can run Warsaws 554 Presoak....I would imagine it works a lot better than the soap your using at the higher ratio?

A few years ago, I took the PS off the HP gun and now run it through the TF foam gun. Another multitude of benefits! You can run lower flojet pressures while achieving higher flow to the gun and you can also eliminate all those extra cv's on the HP hose above the bays! Did I mention the customers love it?!

 

[Greg Pack]

Don't overthink the math. Use your eyes and other senses to adjust most chemicals. If you have to ask yourself "is this strong enough?" It probably isn't.

HP Soap should be on the stronger side, just makes sure it clears out of the line quickly enough when rinse is selected.

HP wax or CCP should leave a noticeable change in the behavior of the water on the surface of a CLEAN vehicle. It should bead or "break"
on the vehicles surface, even after complete rinsing.

For both HP functions you will likely have to use a hydrominder tip much large than you think. Its because the mixture is heavily diluted with water a second time when it is drawn into the pump. I've had to go as strong as a red hydrominder tip to make CCP work properly. Its not unusual for me to use a green tip on soap.

Almost all "standard concentrate" foam brushes I've used use a yellow or purple tip, depending on water hardness. Just make sure the dye is not so strong that it stains easily.

Presoak also will probably have to be run stronger than recommended to get the proper effect. Find a car with road film, spray part of the side of the car with some on, then rinse off with water. If you can not tell a noticeable difference in where the presoak was sprayed you need to strengthen it, or find a new presoak.

Most tire cleans look really good before they clean effectively.As a result most operators go cheap and their tire cleaners are mostly show.

definitely separate your presoak and HP wash chemicals. A good presoak can do a good job cleaning, and you want to give the customer different sensory inputs

 

[JMMUSTANG]

2Biz what's your thoughts about running presoak (making it more like a foaming presoak)from a separate brush instead of a separate gun?

 

[Jeff_L]

I wouldn't run pre-soak from a brush, put it on from a gun. You don't want to scrub a car w dirt/debris on it. You want all that washed away first, then use a brush to clean off the road film.

 

[MEP001]

I'd put a trifoam conditioner on a brush instead of presoak. For one thing, a good presoak should clean a car without scrubbing, or be used when it's not dirty enough for friction. For another, I've noticed many customers will cover their car with trifoam conditioner and let time run out then grab the brush and go over it. I've tried it myself and it does come out with more shine.

 

[JMMUSTANG]

I have notice many customers using the foam brush after using the tri-foam gun to scrub the tri-foam on the car.
I've been thinking about using a brush for tri-foam because of that.
I agree with Jeff but have also seen some customers over the years use the foam brush on the car after applying presoak.
Man that would be a lot of foam brushes in a bay lol.

 

[2Biz]

2Biz what's your thoughts about running presoak (making it more like a foaming presoak)from a separate brush instead of a separate gun?

I agree with others, I wouldn't use PS with a brush....I have PS and TF on the same gun and works pretty good. You'll find PS doesn't foam as good and I'd think it would take a lot to make it work well with the brush. With having PS and TF come out the same gun, they are not the same even running them through the same foamer. TF foams better than the PS....Even so, I would never move the PS back to the HP gun. Way too many benefits running it on a gun for me and the customer.

That is a good question though...I have seen the same thing. Many customers apply PS then use the FB without rinsing the PS off. I could only imagine trying to get the customer acclimated to that change! PS on the foam gun was hard enough! Nobody reads signs! LOL...Every now and then I see somebody select PS holding the HP wand...Their face usually turns red when I show them the sign mounted to the top of the coin box just inches from the coin slot that reads: "New Foaming Pre-soak now on Foam Gun"....

Plus I have a 2 second delay on the chemical for PS and TF...Mainly for the winter switch spinners and my washer fluid winterizing system, but I intentionally let the air come on instantly to give it a blast so the customer can hear it...Some people have issues with just the normal stuff, so you can't make it 100% fool proof! 99.9% of the customers figure it out...You can't worry about the 1/10%...They'll never get it!

 

[2Biz]

Another quick note...I've thought about running TF through the FB too....But I see a lot of people use the TF first, then follow up with the FB....Wouldn't you be cutting yourself out of a little revenue if you did that? My TF gets used a lot compared to what others have said on the forum...

 

[Earl Weiss]

I recently purchased a small self serve, and Im slowly starting to understand how this thing operates mechanically. I am curious how do I know what ratio I am ACTUALLY running out of the gun? The soap I am using is warsaw chemical brand and they supply me with a range of ratios to run. But how do I test the ratios?
.

It would seem you could use a low tech solution. Put a few ounces of concentrate in a small container to suck into the hydrominder and put a bucket under the hydrominder to catch the dilution. Suck till gone and see what total volume is in small bucket. That would be the actual dilution for PS. Empty tank that feeds HP and put this in , or perhaps a fraction of it to start. Put a bucket under the HP Gun in a Bay and let it run until tank empties. Amount in Bucket from Gun vs amount you put in tank gives ratio.

 

[Scottyk]

The reason they don't have a solution for you is because all their chemicals work somewhat differently depending on water quality. So how do you compensate for all the varying water quality out there or be able to supply a one size fits all approach? That's why they offer ranges to get you started. Like others have mentioned, you just have to see what works best for you.

I also use Warsaw. For instance, I use Black Cherry Formula 551 Soap. I run the recommended 90-1 tip in the hydrominder and run 10oz a minute or 38.4-1 into the pump...This equates to 3456-1 final ratio into the pump...BUT, I run ~0~ grain hardness water to get this ratio and get paint like soap in the bays. 5 grain hardness water completely kills soap at this ratio. Changing to 15oz a minute of the same 90-1 hydrominder diluted chemical into the pump changes final ratio to 2304-1....You'll use 1/3 more soap for the same amount of water.

Another comparison, I could change to a 45-1 hydrominder tip and change to 5 oz a minute into the pump and get the same 3456-1 final ratio....When water quality is so important and with varying equipment, you see how hard it can be for a chemical manufacture to help you set ratio's? Thats why I like using the flow-meters...Once I find the right ratio, I can make all bays identical. No customer complaints. All bays are the same. I would imagine this also saves on chemical usage...No guessing bay to bay....I guess that could be debatable from the more experienced operators!

BTW, running ~0~ grain water has a multitude of benefits! Lowest chemical usage (possible) is at the top of the list! BTW, I've never had a complaint in 6 years. Only positive comments how well the wash works compared to my competitors....

Good info! I did not know the hardness had that big of effect on how the soap works. I am running softened water for all functions of the car wash and its a rare occasion that I test the water and its not at 0 grains but I have seen it at 1 and 2 before.

Like I was saying Im not on a mission to skimp on anything, I'm new to this and just want to make sure its working the best I can make it. It seems to me like there is alot of soap coming out of the HP wash function but it is very close to the other SS washes in my area, if not a little heavy on the soap, judging by the amount of suds on the car anyway.

I do think installing a couple flowmeters will help me get everything consistent and a good reference to fall back on when I do start the re-plumbing of this old thing. Right now it takes a good bit of time of running back and forth messing with the needle valve to get the soap looking good and those meters would help alot there.