If you thought Bush was a jerk.
- Thread starter pitzerwm
- Start date
washnvac
Well-known member
Thanks for that, Bill. I would have never seen that if you did not post it. I am amazed the President could keep up.
smokun
Consultant - Rainmaker
Respect? Not By My Definition
If you call that support, I disagree.
Bush took us to war like a drugstore cowboy... and never once apologized for his reckless mistake. Shameful waste of lives... that resulted from continuous lies!
Bush took this country into a war that should never have happened; one that foolishly cost us dearly in valuable lives and treasure. And while he and Congress pandered their support of the troops, they continued to underfund the care of the wounded and continued the disgraceful conditions towards veterans. All the while, they feign support with empty lip-service and soundbite punchlines... while discreetly enabling political supporters with wartime profiteering.
If you call that support, I disagree.
Bush took us to war like a drugstore cowboy... and never once apologized for his reckless mistake. Shameful waste of lives... that resulted from continuous lies!
steve
just saw your 2007 post about george w bush and the iraqi war.
Should have know you were a democrat, no wonder we never agree.
The only president who apologies is barack obama, george w bush has nothing to apologize to anyone for. We were attacked and he acted on the basis of that attack.
Keep in mind he only implemented what his father refused to do, that is, to implement the "paul wolfewitz plan" to topple sadamm as a first step to democratizing the middle east; and to insure another super power like the soviet union never comes into being.
Historians are already saying that history will be very kind to george w bush.
Just some well intentioned, political thoughts.
Bud a
Well somebody sure didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express. Steve you may not know it, but you swerved into a valid discussion about war. Can you cite any war that this country was involved in that was justified? Think about it a little before respoding. Iraq was a mess according to you. How about Viet Nam? Korea? Grenada?(yes we fought a brief conflict there), or even WW2? Were we justified in going to war with Germany? They never attacked us. Japan did attack us, but only after we put an embargo on their essential supplies for two years. (You never seem to hear about that from the historians.) My opinion is that we were justified in going into Iraq. Did you know that Sadam had old aircraft fuselagues where the 9/11 hijackers trained? Did you know Sadam sent $25,000 to families of palistanians whose kid blew himself up? Let me put it to you in another light. Say that in your immediate neighborhood, there is a house where all the kids that committ crimes hang out. The house gives them a safe place to plan crimes and steal a little booze from their derelict parents. The house owners have never committed a crime, but all the crime committed in the neighborhood is by kids that hang out there. Now suppose that house is next to yours. Just exactly what would you do? I am not a feverent supporter of the younger Bush. His fiscal policies were a mess. I also do not think our military has the conviction to prosecute a war the way it used to. As I've said before, bring back the good old flamethrowers from WW2 and the taliban will be toast in two weeks. Food for thought.
smokun
Consultant - Rainmaker
Broke My Own Rule About What NOT To Discuss Publically
Bud...
I am not a Democrat. Why the hostility?!!!
George Bush and Dick Cheney knowingly walked us into a war based on LIES and misrepresentations... and did so with seemingly cavalier arrogance. I personally find that obscenely unacceptable.
Mac...
You cite some historically valid points that shaped your argument. While I do not agree with all of what you said, I respect the candor of your opinion. My sense is that "the good old days" probably wouldn't seem so good under today's intense real-time scrutiny.
In today's technological world, the instant wide exposure news forum and video theater of the Internet have changed the landscape of conflict, making it much easier to manipulate public opinion... as well as offering an opportunity for an unbalanced argument that often leads to staunch polarity. We now live on a much more volatile stage... with more widespread risks.
My real disgust lies in the (say-it-but-don't-mean-it) politician's pandering (Republicans and Democrats alike)... while the same people who beat the drum of supporting the troops and flaunt their flag lapel pin... hypocritically balk at adequately funding the extended medical care and rehabilitation of our many broken veterans, many of whom wind up living on the streets or worse. The Walter Reed fiasco is but a tip of the iceberg.
Sincere apologies, in advance, to anyone my candor has offended.
Bud...
I am not a Democrat. Why the hostility?!!!
George Bush and Dick Cheney knowingly walked us into a war based on LIES and misrepresentations... and did so with seemingly cavalier arrogance. I personally find that obscenely unacceptable.
Mac...
You cite some historically valid points that shaped your argument. While I do not agree with all of what you said, I respect the candor of your opinion. My sense is that "the good old days" probably wouldn't seem so good under today's intense real-time scrutiny.
In today's technological world, the instant wide exposure news forum and video theater of the Internet have changed the landscape of conflict, making it much easier to manipulate public opinion... as well as offering an opportunity for an unbalanced argument that often leads to staunch polarity. We now live on a much more volatile stage... with more widespread risks.
My real disgust lies in the (say-it-but-don't-mean-it) politician's pandering (Republicans and Democrats alike)... while the same people who beat the drum of supporting the troops and flaunt their flag lapel pin... hypocritically balk at adequately funding the extended medical care and rehabilitation of our many broken veterans, many of whom wind up living on the streets or worse. The Walter Reed fiasco is but a tip of the iceberg.
Sincere apologies, in advance, to anyone my candor has offended.
Steve just one small point. At the time we went into Iraq everyone agreed that Sadam had the weapons of mass destruction. Everyone from Kerry and Hillary, and all our foreign allies believed it. A lie is an intentional distortion of the truth. Small point but important to me. That said even though things are done under a microscope, when you engage people in a war, you only win when you kill people and break things. If you don't have the stomach for that, don't start it.
smokun
Consultant - Rainmaker
"Go Along To Get Along" Mistake
Mac...
Before "everyone" agreed, there was a burden to confirm and verify (a Reagan phrase) the legitimacy. The FBI & CIA confirmed that our original target was Afghanistan. Many feel that Bush wanted to reengage Iraq to punish them for actions against Bush Sr, causing suspicion of personal retribution by Bush; who knows.
I recall many who insisted that we corroborate the questionable single-source info about Iraq, but were quickly dismissed as being weak-kneed liberals by those who simply went along to get along with the President and Vice-President. Bogus info (that ultimately shamed Gen. Powell to leave the cabinet) was mustered to maintain the momentum of the drumbeat of war. I agree that hindsight is 20/20...and accept that the media was complicit by getting caught up in the war vacuum and mostly maintaining lopsided support of the administration.
I accept that war means that things get broken and people get hurt. My point is that the same people who found the many, many billions to fund the war and profiteers like Halliburton, continuously failed to really support the returning troops with funding for comprehensive care and SUPPORT.
My comments are not about legitimizing history. Rather, focusing on duplicity and hypocritical politicians who continue to ignore the funding support they often claimed to give. Returning troops seem to often be an afterthought ignored.
Enough said.
Mac...
Before "everyone" agreed, there was a burden to confirm and verify (a Reagan phrase) the legitimacy. The FBI & CIA confirmed that our original target was Afghanistan. Many feel that Bush wanted to reengage Iraq to punish them for actions against Bush Sr, causing suspicion of personal retribution by Bush; who knows.
I recall many who insisted that we corroborate the questionable single-source info about Iraq, but were quickly dismissed as being weak-kneed liberals by those who simply went along to get along with the President and Vice-President. Bogus info (that ultimately shamed Gen. Powell to leave the cabinet) was mustered to maintain the momentum of the drumbeat of war. I agree that hindsight is 20/20...and accept that the media was complicit by getting caught up in the war vacuum and mostly maintaining lopsided support of the administration.
I accept that war means that things get broken and people get hurt. My point is that the same people who found the many, many billions to fund the war and profiteers like Halliburton, continuously failed to really support the returning troops with funding for comprehensive care and SUPPORT.
My comments are not about legitimizing history. Rather, focusing on duplicity and hypocritical politicians who continue to ignore the funding support they often claimed to give. Returning troops seem to often be an afterthought ignored.
Enough said.
pitzerwm
Active member
If you want to see what all of our Presidents have done watch the movie The War on Democracy. It will scare you and also make you angry.
Saddam said that he had WMDs and would use them. If anyone is to blame, its him. IMO, the stupidly is that we no longer go in, right the wrong and leave, we go in a muck around and never leave.
Saddam said that he had WMDs and would use them. If anyone is to blame, its him. IMO, the stupidly is that we no longer go in, right the wrong and leave, we go in a muck around and never leave.
Steve
There is no hostility at all in my reply. I have nothing but the utmost respect for a senior member of the car wash industry.
Please do not be paranoid about my comments on your posts.
You all might be interested to read this article from Countercurrents:
"Has U.S. Foreigh Policy Ever Been in Such a Mess?"
Multiple wars are symptoms of the need to escape the quagmire of empire
http://www.countercurrents.org/zeese130711.htm
Regards
Bud Abraham
There is no hostility at all in my reply. I have nothing but the utmost respect for a senior member of the car wash industry.
Please do not be paranoid about my comments on your posts.
You all might be interested to read this article from Countercurrents:
"Has U.S. Foreigh Policy Ever Been in Such a Mess?"
Multiple wars are symptoms of the need to escape the quagmire of empire
http://www.countercurrents.org/zeese130711.htm
Regards
Bud Abraham
Mr. Pitzer, well said. But then that's why you run this joint. Unfortunately we may never have the decision power to affect decisions about sending our youth into battle. We are however having a discussion that may affect someone else who reads this and does have that power. I'm too freaking old to have our military consider me for combat anymore. Besides my wife expects me to run our small supplier business. But man, if I had one last chance to lead a squad of Marines again, just give me a couple canteens of water and a lot of ammo clips, and hello taliban !
pitzerwm
Active member
If I had of been in charge, I would have taken Saddam at his word and turned Bagdad into liquid glass and called it even. Bush got accused of going after the oil, 10 years later, we never got a drop, what the hell??? My thought is you need your butt liberated, I'm send a bill after I do it for you.
smokun
Consultant - Rainmaker
Not Too Late To Collect Past Due Bill
Bill, payback makes good sense! And it's not too late... if our government has the stomach.
Most Americans who remember the logic offered by the administration and Congress regarding payback would probably support seizing the oil and exacting compensation. It would send a strong message about future quid pro quo military action for others who seek to have us be the world cop. Instead, we're simply selling them 18 F-16s, which is good for our arms dealers... but nothing repays the taxpayer. Our allies would share in reimbursement, further solidifying the network. Anyone care about the 4 BILLION $$$ CASH lost by our gov't and kept quiet until the GAO asked for an audit? Seems to me that Congress needs to do some explaining... before the next election.
Bill, payback makes good sense! And it's not too late... if our government has the stomach.
Most Americans who remember the logic offered by the administration and Congress regarding payback would probably support seizing the oil and exacting compensation. It would send a strong message about future quid pro quo military action for others who seek to have us be the world cop. Instead, we're simply selling them 18 F-16s, which is good for our arms dealers... but nothing repays the taxpayer. Our allies would share in reimbursement, further solidifying the network. Anyone care about the 4 BILLION $$$ CASH lost by our gov't and kept quiet until the GAO asked for an audit? Seems to me that Congress needs to do some explaining... before the next election.
