cleaning up mud
Member
Any of you that have friction machines, ever had anyone complain that their car didn't come clean? Thanks.
IN bay friction machines
- Thread starter cleaning up mud
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Sure, absolutely. We turn out a great car, I'm very proud of the product we put out in both of our washes, but I don't think ANY carwash no matter what type is immune to "those" customers.
Edit: Now that I think about it, thinking back and comparing our touchless vs our in bay friction, our in bay friction clearly does a better job of cleaning a vehicle than our touchless does, however I seem to run into "those people" with unrealistic expectations more often in the friction than the touchless. My guess would be that friction invokes a higher level of expectation than touchless does.
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cleaning up mud
Member
BBE, that's a good explanation, well thought out. What kind of friction machine do you have? I think the weather in your part of the country has something to do with it, but, the weather texas has has lately, mist, not much rain if any, the roads have not been washed off from rain in months due to the drought, but the drizzle has played a havoc on cars here. And I know what you are talking about "those people".
I see cars out and about that has swirl marks/streaks where the brushes did not remove the dirt or grime.
We have a high velocity for our touchless and a tandem for our friction.
How can you be sure those cars went through a friction automatic?
There is not doubt that friction cleans better than touch free on a consistent basis. I was a GM of a chain of touch free tunnels. There were many times most of the cleaning was done at the exit end with spray bottles and towels. When the washes were sold the first thing the new owner did was put in friction.
The main driving force behind the development of touch free washes was the generally held belief at the time that friction damaged cars. The main driver of touch free automatic sales was the oil companies in an effort to cut down on damage claims due mostly to the lack of maintenance on their equipment more than the machines themselves. For years many auto manufacturers used friction washes to wash their vehicles at their plants. Today there is not the same hesitation for customers to use a friction wash and along with the new friction media and improved detergents that provide more lubricity and cleaning, friction washes have made a comeback. Probably the best indication of this is the fact that equipment companies that previously offered only touch free automatics now offer friction machines as well. If there was no demand for friction machines I am sure they wouldn't have decided to offer them.
There is not doubt that friction cleans better than touch free on a consistent basis. I was a GM of a chain of touch free tunnels. There were many times most of the cleaning was done at the exit end with spray bottles and towels. When the washes were sold the first thing the new owner did was put in friction.
The main driving force behind the development of touch free washes was the generally held belief at the time that friction damaged cars. The main driver of touch free automatic sales was the oil companies in an effort to cut down on damage claims due mostly to the lack of maintenance on their equipment more than the machines themselves. For years many auto manufacturers used friction washes to wash their vehicles at their plants. Today there is not the same hesitation for customers to use a friction wash and along with the new friction media and improved detergents that provide more lubricity and cleaning, friction washes have made a comeback. Probably the best indication of this is the fact that equipment companies that previously offered only touch free automatics now offer friction machines as well. If there was no demand for friction machines I am sure they wouldn't have decided to offer them.
Waxman
Super Moderator
friction and touch free have strengths and weaknesses.
touchfree strengths:
1. few damage claims. 2. consistent prep-less cleaning. 3. low labor (runs ok unmanned)
weaknesses: 1. touchfree cleaning is somewhat limited.
friction strengths: 1. cleans well. 2. dependable machinery
weaknesses: 1. damage claims. 2. safety concerns if unmanned (or manned) 3. cleaning trouble spots like behind mirrors, roof rails, wings etc.
touchfree strengths:
1. few damage claims. 2. consistent prep-less cleaning. 3. low labor (runs ok unmanned)
weaknesses: 1. touchfree cleaning is somewhat limited.
friction strengths: 1. cleans well. 2. dependable machinery
weaknesses: 1. damage claims. 2. safety concerns if unmanned (or manned) 3. cleaning trouble spots like behind mirrors, roof rails, wings etc.
What makes you feel that a friction automatic needs to be manned more than touch free? I think damage claims can happen at either type of wash. Recently there have been several posts regarding touch free automatics hitting vehicles here on the Forum.
I am not trying to be an advocate for friction washes over touch free but I think that operators need to keep an open mind and decide which is better for them based on facts more than opinions or past statements about one or the other. Personally I think it is preferable to have someone on site for any type of automatic especially when busy. At a minimum a good camera system is a must to monitor the site. No machine is infallible and we all know that customers can't be trusted to follow instructions either.
I am not trying to be an advocate for friction washes over touch free but I think that operators need to keep an open mind and decide which is better for them based on facts more than opinions or past statements about one or the other. Personally I think it is preferable to have someone on site for any type of automatic especially when busy. At a minimum a good camera system is a must to monitor the site. No machine is infallible and we all know that customers can't be trusted to follow instructions either.
Waxman
Super Moderator
friction machines have more moving parts that can harm vehicles and people. that isn't an opinion it's a fact.
mitters, wraps, spinning brushes all are dangerous. the same or similar equipment is in conveyorized automatic washes and those are staffed while open.
this is not to say that a touchfree is free of danger; it isn't. however, operating a brush wash of any sort un-staffed is asking for trouble.
mitters, wraps, spinning brushes all are dangerous. the same or similar equipment is in conveyorized automatic washes and those are staffed while open.
this is not to say that a touchfree is free of danger; it isn't. however, operating a brush wash of any sort un-staffed is asking for trouble.
You are mixing fact with opinion. The fact that friction has more moving parts doesn't necessarily mean it is more likely to cause damage. The reason tunnels are staffed has more to do with the use of a conveyor to move vehicles through the wash process more than friction as opposed to touch free, not the equipment. Operating any automatic without someone on site involves assumption of some risk and could be considered dangerous. I am not trying to pick a fight here. Simply want to dispel that one form of automatic is more dangerous than the other. Both have their issues and it is up to the operator to decide what best meets their needs to operate a successful wash.
I have 3 automatics at my location, 2 touch-free and 1 friction. Our newest machine is a 5 brush Belanger Freestyler with the high pressure wash package this machine doesn't miss and outperforms my touch-frees. Out of 20,000 washes I have had 2 damage claims. One with a customer who said it scratched her vehicle. She came the next day to show me the vehicle she had no receipt of getting a wash, no credit card statement to prove she was here and never saw her vehicle at my wash after reviewing the cameras. The second complaint was recent that a customer had a long euro style aftermarket license plate on his Scion which he installed himself. He swore up and down the machine did it. After review of the cameras the license plate was already broken off when he pulled in. In our case its always someone who wants to blame that the car wash had to do it and that their vehicle lives in a protective bubble only when its not at the car wash of course.
Waxman
Super Moderator
so it's friction and high pressure? that sounds good.
but is the wash attended?
but is the wash attended?
Waxman
Super Moderator
i can agree that all automated machinery can be dangerous. personally i would not operate a friction machine un staffed. however, to be fair, i have only operated touch free.
in my mind the rotary action of friction equipment must be logically more dangerous than an inverted L spraying hp water and its rotating parts making only 8 or less complete revolutions (going slowly) per wash. In comparison, friction machines have larger and faster moving parts that make hundreds of complete revolutions per wash cycle.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here either but it's as if you are saying, RPH, that a person is just as like to lose a limb operating a saw rig used to cut cord wood as they are operating a skil saw.
I am not saying that at all. I am just trying to say that the facts don't support your assumption. There are potential problems in both types and I do not believe that you can assume friction washes damage vehicles because of the way they operate. An operator needs to make their equipment decision based on what serves the needs of their customers best and what they are comfortable with. If one is afraid of damaging a vehicle in their automatic maybe this is not the business to be in because it can happen with any type of automatic.
JustClean
Active member
I've got both - touchless and friction. Both are unmanned at night. The friction gives me headaches then.
1. Customer stupidity
Guy drives into the friction, machine starts and is coming towards the front of the car. He jumps out, squeezes between machine and car to get to the other side of the car to lower his antenna. The machine almost got him. NO WAY the gantry had stopped. God knows what would have happened. You don't have this problem with a touchfree.
2. Machine damage
I have to watch what goes into the brush machine. I live in an area where every third car has some modifications, heavy duty antennas, dog cages, etc. All this can damage the brush material and then it gets costly. If you want to have a good night sleep and live in an area with cars like this don't operate a brush machine unmanned.
In regards to damage claims: I've had 2 rightful claims with 50,000 washes.
1. Customer stupidity
Guy drives into the friction, machine starts and is coming towards the front of the car. He jumps out, squeezes between machine and car to get to the other side of the car to lower his antenna. The machine almost got him. NO WAY the gantry had stopped. God knows what would have happened. You don't have this problem with a touchfree.
2. Machine damage
I have to watch what goes into the brush machine. I live in an area where every third car has some modifications, heavy duty antennas, dog cages, etc. All this can damage the brush material and then it gets costly. If you want to have a good night sleep and live in an area with cars like this don't operate a brush machine unmanned.
In regards to damage claims: I've had 2 rightful claims with 50,000 washes.
I'm at my wash 6 to 7 days a week doing various tasks. I watch it as much as I can but basically it runs its self. I have no attendants.
Waxman
Super Moderator
my assumptions are supported by logic and by posts like this one by just clean.
JustClean
Active member
Maybe using the word "touchless" and thinking about an inverted L machine can create confusion. I believe a "touchless" gantry machine can be dangerous, if not operated correctly.
Maybe that post doesn't support you as much as you feel. I have been all over this country and seen hundreds of automatics. From my experience what you are trying to say is simply not correct but you are entitled to your opinion. If your perception is why you made your choice that is fine but it may not be the best one for others. My point for all of this that I have stated several times is that an operator must make their choice on what best satisfies their needs and the needs of their customer base. I would not exclude friction due to perceived possibility of damage especially with the new generation of friction automatics and media used in the process. This is becoming more obvious with the recent growth of sales of friction automatics.
